Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter proposal
Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> Fri, 05 April 2013 16:15 UTC
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Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 12:15:35 -0400
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From: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Cc: IETF Apps Discuss <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter proposal
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My sense is that this conversation's gotten too heated to shed much light on things, so I want to try to pull it back into what the issues are, and away from any sort of attack/defense mode. I believe that Stephen's issue with the charter involves the restrictions on what the working group would not be allowed to do with the proposed DMARC spec. So let me pick out a few quotes from the proposed charter ( http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/appsawg/trac/wiki/DMARC ) and try to address that, giving my own opinions on the points: > DMARC already has achieved significant production deployment. Consequently, > any changes to the specification that create software or operations incompatibilities > with the installed base need to be considered carefully. I think this states a requirement clearly, and it seems to me not to be very controversial. It doesn't forbid any types of changes to the spec. It does say that some sorts of changes "need to be considered carefully." Given that there's significant deployment at this point, that seems wise. > The strong preference is for the working group to preserve existing software > and procedures. Again, nothing forbidden, but it's clear that we have running code, and requiring those deployments to roll out new core or new operational parameters would be disruptive. It's our *preference* not to do that, so, again, we need to consider carefully. > For changes likely to affect the installed base, the working group will seek > review and advice, beyond working group participants, to include other > developers and operators of DMARC-based mechanisms. We have a lot of evidence that comes from development and refinement of application-layer protocols that, while some implementors and operators will be here participating, many will not: they have a ship to run. They understand that disruptive changes aren't likely, and they're off doing what pays their bills. This sentence is saying that if we start seriously considering a disruptive change, we'll explicitly reach out to such operators, alert them to what we're considering, and bring them in, asking for their review and comment. I think that's an acceptable approach. > However discussion, debate and resolution of issues that target revision > of the specification are out of scope for this working group. This is the only sentence that I have difficulty with, for a couple of reasons: 1. The word "revision" is too broad and vague. On the surface, it could mean that *any* change to the specification is out of scope. There's no point in asking the IETF to work on something for which that's the case. 2. It puts *discussion* out of scope. That would arguably include discussion that could lead to the identification of a major fault or serious omission in the spec -- a fault or omission that the vast majority of participants might consider it critical to fix. If we can't discuss it, we can't determine whether it's something that rough consensus is against, something that's a good idea that can be dealt with later, or a critical problem that needs to be addressed now. I understand that this is meant to prevent the working group from becoming bogged down in repeated requests for changes that could and should be taken up later. But until we discuss them, we don't know what category they fall into. This is why we have chairs, and I would prefer to trust the chairs to manage the discussion -- and to appropriately manage people who are bringing issues up for discussion just to be disruptive. I strongly suggest changing that sentence so that it gives a more workable characterization of what's out of scope. Now, to Stephen: Again, let's step back and perhaps repeat, but in clearer focus, what your issue(s) are. Can you quote specific text from the proposed charter that you have an issue with, say specifically what your issue is, and say what you'd like done about it (with specific proposed text if you can)? If we state that clearly, and afresh, maybe we'll have a better chance of moving forward. Barry
- [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter propos… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Dave Crocker
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Scott Kitterman
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Dave Crocker
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Dave Crocker
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Scott Kitterman
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Dave Crocker
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… SM
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Dave Crocker
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… SM
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Dave Crocker
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Barry Leiba
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Dave Crocker
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Barry Leiba
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Dave Crocker
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Dave Crocker
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Dave Crocker
- Re: [apps-discuss] DMARC working group charter pr… Stephen Farrell