Re: [apps-discuss] [Ecrit] review of draft-ietf-ecrit-lost-sync-12
Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> Mon, 05 March 2012 22:15 UTC
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Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 16:15:01 -0600
From: Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com>
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Cc: hgs+ecrit@cs.columbia.edu, ecrit@ietf.org, "apps-discuss@ietf.org" <apps-discuss@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] [Ecrit] review of draft-ietf-ecrit-lost-sync-12
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(One typo correction inline) On 3/5/12 4:05 PM, Robert Sparks wrote: > There's an aspect of this document that I want to make sure folks > aren't missing. > > The things lostsync1 are adding are not things that something that > speaks lost will every say. s/every/ever/ > > It's not an iteration of the lost vocabulary in that sense. > > It is something spoken by things that talk about lost speakers. > > This is not an extension of Lost. It is a different protocol that > replicates the data used to > answer Lost queries. It reuses the format that Lost uses when talking > about that data. > > Does that make a difference in whether a new namespace is appropriate? > > (No is an OK answer - I don't have a strong opinion, but my instinct > says that the separate > namespace is likely to introduce fewer problems because of a bad > assumption an implementer > could make if the values were in the same namespace). > > RjS > > > On 2/23/12 4:38 AM, "Martin J. Dürst" wrote: >> Hello Peter, others, >> >> On 2012/02/23 6:55, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >>> Robert Sparks asked me to think about the namespaces issue... >>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: review of >>>> draft-ietf-ecrit-lost-sync-12 Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 11:17:10 >>>> +0200 >>>> From: Hannes Tschofenig<hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net> To: >>>> "Martin J. >>>> Dürst"<duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> CC: Hannes Tschofenig >>>> <hannes.tschofenig@gmx.net>, Henning Schulzrinne >>>> <hgs+ecrit@cs.columbia.edu>, Marc Linsner<mlinsner@cisco.com>, >>>> Robert Sparks<rjsparks@nostrum.com>, "apps-review@ietf.org" >>>> <apps-review@ietf.org>, ecrit@ietf.org >>>> >>>> >>>>> From Martin: >>>> >>>>> Namespaces: It is overkill to define new namespaces for each spec. >>>>> It's a well-known secret in the XML community that it's easily >>>>> possible to add a number of new elements to an existing namespace. >>>>> This would be very appropriate in this case, because the number of >>>>> reused elements and attributes is quite large, and the number of >>>>> new elements is low. This would simplify most of the examples. >>>> >>>> I guess you refer to the namespace registration in the IANA >>>> consideration section, namely urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:lostsync1 >>>> >>>> In the RAI area we have (to my knowledge) always created new >>>> namespaces for new schemas. But I am pleased to hear that this is not >>>> needed. >>>> >>>> Could you explain what we should be doing instead? >> >> Rather than define a new namespace lostsync1, just add the few >> elements you defined anew to the lost1 namespace. It will make the >> format simpler, and it won't hurt. >> >>> I don't see a problem with defining a new namespace for each iteration >>> of an XML format (lostsync1, lostsync2, etc.), >> >> There's no 'problem' with defining a separate namespace for each >> element. Correct software should still work. But it's not really >> necessary, it's tedious for human users and just overkill. >> >>> because I don't think >>> there's a general case here -- backward compatibility can depend on the >>> community of interest. One community might be doing strict schema >>> checking, so that any new elements or attributes would be problematic. >>> By contrast, another community might be more lax in its processing >>> because they specify that applications must ignore unknown elements and >>> attributes, even those qualified by an existing namespace. >> >> Validation is largely independent of namespaces. There are some >> problems with validating documents with more than one namespace, >> depending on the technology (I'd have to look up the details), but >> there are NO issues, with any of the validating technologies around >> (DTDs, XML Schema, Relaxing, Schematron), when having only one >> namespace and validating against subsets thereof. >> >> W3C technologies regularly do that (XHTML and SVG are the examples I >> know best). Way, way back there was a heated discussion in the XML >> community about whether a new namespace would make sense for a new >> version of XHTML, and this was strongly and utterly rejected. The way >> it was put most prominently was "a <p> is a <p> is a <p>". >> >> Validation is not only different for versions, but as you have >> explained also for various other purposes. Some applications may use >> validation to introduce further restrictions (e.g. for security >> reasons in certain places), and so on. >> >> A new namespace for a new version only make sense if the old and the >> new version are something completely different, with essentially no >> common elements and no documents that would be acceptable in both >> versions. For other cases, using separate namespaces just increases >> clutter without contributing anything. >> >> The same is the case here. The proposed "lostsync1" namespace doesn't >> contain many elements, and is only useful together with the "lost1" >> namespace. That's of course unless the people in charge of the LOST >> protocol and the people who came up with LOSTSYNC totally distrust >> each other, but I was just assuming that's not the case :-). >> >> Regards, Martin. > _______________________________________________ > Ecrit mailing list > Ecrit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
- [apps-discuss] Fwd: review of draft-ietf-ecrit-lo… S Moonesamy
- Re: [apps-discuss] review of draft-ietf-ecrit-los… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [apps-discuss] review of draft-ietf-ecrit-los… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [apps-discuss] review of draft-ietf-ecrit-los… Robert Sparks
- Re: [apps-discuss] [Ecrit] review of draft-ietf-e… Robert Sparks
- Re: [apps-discuss] review of draft-ietf-ecrit-los… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [apps-discuss] review of draft-ietf-ecrit-los… Hannes Tschofenig