Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression

Christian Huitema <huitema@microsoft.com> Fri, 09 October 2015 00:22 UTC

Return-Path: <huitema@microsoft.com>
X-Original-To: aqm@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: aqm@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75CD71B2E3F for <aqm@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 17:22:21 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.002
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ph2s5-j6hHU4 for <aqm@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 17:22:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2on0771.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fc0c::771]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 535EA1B2E3D for <aqm@ietf.org>; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 17:22:15 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=selector1; h=From:To:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=ytGBlTPGGieYyqScyktTLyudZsC15KhNHnAJHPy+wdI=; b=PSghP4NKUEdgO1G/24DrTuiHhs7mKLnWS5OXYSoWMQraTMkvTgDjibTZ3zgTnNAOtpL4hfEsGw/FePVLU7pCZLjsFo8rsMOwG5ES9wkLei8dY187ju2bnkrGr5Q7fO6Szkd9KCGDa10PzH12Rdbx5LOCOoz+5BtqqBS2FGmDDio=
Received: from DM2PR0301MB0655.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.160.96.17) by DM2PR0301MB0655.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.160.96.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.293.16; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 00:21:53 +0000
Received: from DM2PR0301MB0655.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.160.96.17]) by DM2PR0301MB0655.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.160.96.17]) with mapi id 15.01.0293.007; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 00:21:52 +0000
From: Christian Huitema <huitema@microsoft.com>
To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>, Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>
Thread-Topic: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression
Thread-Index: AQHRAAfbllNLaBz3UU217XuyZ9HvpJ5eqe0AgAD9UYCAAnWAgIAABLaAgAAEBoCAAAwfAIAADw8AgAALgQCAAAGRoA==
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 00:21:52 +0000
Message-ID: <DM2PR0301MB065553C4CF55E7A6E5E23317A8340@DM2PR0301MB0655.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1510060748480.8750@uplift.swm.pp.se> <D2394BB6.548C5%g.white@cablelabs.com> <0A452E1DADEF254C9A7AC1969B8781284A7D9B66@FR712WXCHMBA13.zeu.alcatel-lucent.com> <5616DCD9.8@isi.edu> <alpine.DEB.2.02.1510081428470.3852@nftneq.ynat.uz> <5616E42D.5090402@isi.edu> <alpine.DEB.2.02.1510081517470.3852@nftneq.ynat.uz> <5616FAFA.5020707@isi.edu> <alpine.DEB.2.02.1510081647590.3852@nftneq.ynat.uz>
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1510081647590.3852@nftneq.ynat.uz>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=huitema@microsoft.com;
x-originating-ip: [131.107.147.28]
x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DM2PR0301MB0655; 5:bsPrQ0IGEXe1tCA6m0jVlk5lpvnTT4MRtkeVHEqQ+I/WnGpFreqLCnU7rYGw4sCQWWF7IuUbJy8jsOSxNcm4AysxJL8M8E7Hy7uAiuLZgXHY6ePB8+/vS+yvh/JxpmaaGMTT3t2x9bb7VY5w4tBVRQ==; 24:V3L24UyL6xo/TpWJ1w7Ep92kuFKOdacPKFNlnFwdSbtRwm3NuXcYi+JOZFu9oe4eqaSqzq8HgRUP6JGjsYkN+YRkKkYQnwXa75XrcWjj1UU=; 20:+PXtDnHvcSBX/FWWGbzNb9oGxREy6oJIsycaQNi1tsIthiHyg4f1hQdqRFBuoonvCFEehz8XQYDdotc3Jg7f+A==
x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:DM2PR0301MB0655;
x-o365eop-header: O365_EOP: Allow for Unauthenticated Relay
x-o365ent-eop-header: Message processed by - O365_ENT: Allow from ranges (Engineering ONLY)
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <DM2PR0301MB065586284DB8D32F88389349A8340@DM2PR0301MB0655.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:;
x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(61425024)(601004)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(520078)(3002001)(61426024)(61427024); SRVR:DM2PR0301MB0655; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:DM2PR0301MB0655;
x-forefront-prvs: 0724FCD4CD
x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(189002)(199003)(86612001)(5008740100001)(99286002)(46102003)(86362001)(106356001)(106116001)(5005710100001)(10290500002)(81156007)(105586002)(10400500002)(76576001)(10090500001)(5001770100001)(5001960100002)(5002640100001)(8990500004)(5001920100001)(5007970100001)(5004730100002)(97736004)(189998001)(92566002)(33656002)(101416001)(2171001)(87936001)(54356999)(64706001)(76176999)(93886004)(40100003)(50986999)(122556002)(77096005)(5003600100002)(2900100001)(2950100001)(102836002)(66066001)(74316001)(217873001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DM2PR0301MB0655; H:DM2PR0301MB0655.namprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en;
received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts)
spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23
spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Oct 2015 00:21:52.4818 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM2PR0301MB0655
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/aqm/T2hiTMgnMSW-lTU5879GeZuMQI8>
Cc: "LAUTENSCHLAEGER, Wolfram \(Wolfram\)" <wolfram.lautenschlaeger@alcatel-lucent.com>, Greg White <g.white@CableLabs.com>, "aqm@ietf.org" <aqm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [aqm] TCP ACK Suppression
X-BeenThere: aqm@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Discussion list for active queue management and flow isolation." <aqm.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/aqm>, <mailto:aqm-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/aqm/>
List-Post: <mailto:aqm@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:aqm-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/aqm>, <mailto:aqm-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 00:22:21 -0000

All that discussion is fun, but we should be careful to stay within the respective group charters.

As far as AQM is concerned, the question is whether the group wants to standardize some kind of special handling of TCP ACK as part of queue management. As far as the IETF rules are concerned, the answer is clearly NO -- we cannot create an IETF recommendation that breaks other IETF recommendations. Besides, such rules would not be very effective if the transport protocol is encrypted, as for example QUIC, or SCTP over DTLS. AQM should certainly not depend on end-systems not using encryption.

As for TCP and other protocols, the question is whether they should pay more attention to the volume of ACK and other control packets. The deployment of queue management systems like FQ-CODEL actually creates an incentive to do that, because a transport protocol that creates congestion on its uplink will be automatically penalized. But that discussion belongs in TCPM and other transport working groups, not AQM.

-- Christian Huitema