Re: [aqm] [Bloat] Bufferbloat and the policy debate on packet loss in nanog

Jim Gettys <jg@freedesktop.org> Mon, 02 March 2015 01:10 UTC

Return-Path: <gettysjim@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: aqm@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: aqm@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C36E91A1EFD for <aqm@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 1 Mar 2015 17:10:54 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.277
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QHPvedkpBEIv for <aqm@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 1 Mar 2015 17:10:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-oi0-x22a.google.com (mail-oi0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07A311A0113 for <aqm@ietf.org>; Sun, 1 Mar 2015 17:10:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-oi0-f42.google.com with SMTP id h136so24453616oig.1 for <aqm@ietf.org>; Sun, 01 Mar 2015 17:10:52 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=OesKfubefATjnSJNHjKEuq+fwl/QzPgcU0xULyV7d1k=; b=VuGwps97vdl9kAg2/Rq8NuOQhhdqxd31QswgCUQlry4swHU8DyiasxYwZwysc6nIiM wph9+SMi7+z4So47nqCsttmDz2adK9zP3KxpCzF1SXXlI0CNZi2Y3TZEqTwLAS97I2V8 1aI0N+q8dNB4ibzkL8cGHtfPhW7yVE00DSVjNix/+uwogdqegQkLiwD+wgZHxq6aFEMz OULnkzNEoQpVeqt1E+OOe7TG2IT6t5f2Fv7VBkZ2hWPlPqiBvU0jjD9Yl1WFUl+3GY4t O1Rm1qRbuyJdyxlleROK0TunfCueWqY8wJgKJYSEq0aHhxn+inExrmrBoIFx6xoRhfgb 2xMQ==
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.60.46.36 with SMTP id s4mr17383082oem.66.1425258652291; Sun, 01 Mar 2015 17:10:52 -0800 (PST)
Sender: gettysjim@gmail.com
Received: by 10.76.76.37 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Mar 2015 17:10:52 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <CALQXh-PSfeHnkgNFCwQzbDhTRDt2-vihNsuydcVNLNmMX_G7YQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA93jw5a+DCufYkDX0yV9O_P2M_j+PEASnoziJ8yMKkxvHgftA@mail.gmail.com> <CALQXh-PSfeHnkgNFCwQzbDhTRDt2-vihNsuydcVNLNmMX_G7YQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 20:10:52 -0500
X-Google-Sender-Auth: _XkUwS6B-M7yicotavE3Vg-c0s4
Message-ID: <CAGhGL2CZk_sVnMZkMi=g8K1tQQAsxOUxRawiZo47wzjyt5N9=g@mail.gmail.com>
From: Jim Gettys <jg@freedesktop.org>
To: Aaron Wood <woody77@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="089e01536eb2aed953051043e39a"
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/aqm/ThNHlFhsOCS35-TVcNiRLcqeIh4>
Cc: bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>, "cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net" <cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net>, "aqm@ietf.org" <aqm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [aqm] [Bloat] Bufferbloat and the policy debate on packet loss in nanog
X-BeenThere: aqm@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Discussion list for active queue management and flow isolation." <aqm.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/aqm>, <mailto:aqm-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/aqm/>
List-Post: <mailto:aqm@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:aqm-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/aqm>, <mailto:aqm-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 01:10:54 -0000

On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 7:56 PM, Aaron Wood <woody77@gmail.com> wrote:

> But until the silicon vendors update _their_ forks of OpenWRT,
> commercially available home routers won't have these benefits.  Because the
> home router market is dominated by packaged reference designs from one of a
> very small number of companies that actually make all the chipsets (Dave, I
> know you know this, I'm mostly just choir-preaching myself).
>

​I was talking to one of the major chipset vendors just this last Thursday.​


​
We have to fork-lift upgrade all of these devices, ASAP.

And change how we build/maintain these systems, and do business in embedded
systems.

See my Berkman Center talk here:

http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/events/luncheon/2014/06/gettys​


​We'll be struggling with the policies issues the rest of our lives (which
is why I presented to the Berkman Center).

Also read Dan Geer's policy piece in Lawfare the Lawfare blog.

http://www.lawfareblog.com/2014/04/heartbleed-as-metaphor/

Bruce Schneier's piece in Wired on the IOT is also very good, but aimed at
a mass audience.

I will be publishing and updated version of the talk very soon; the
situation is yet more perilous since June, and my explanations clearer.

Jim

​


> -Aaron
>
> On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> There's nothing new here, but it was a nice rant to get out of my system:
>>
>> http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.org.operators.nanog/128201
>>
>> Of late, I have been taking a page from Linus Torvalds' playbook, in
>> realizing that "on the internet, no-one can hear you being subtle",
>> and BOY, am I done with that.
>>
>> --
>> Dave Täht
>> Let's make wifi fast, less jittery and reliable again!
>>
>> https://plus.google.com/u/0/107942175615993706558/posts/TVX3o84jjmb
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>
>