Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience

Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Sun, 29 December 2019 19:38 UTC

Return-Path: <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 530BC120098 for <architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 11:38:16 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.999
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4AqDxFE__tkr for <architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 11:38:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-pg1-x535.google.com (mail-pg1-x535.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::535]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91F3B1200A3 for <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 11:38:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-pg1-x535.google.com with SMTP id k25so17023742pgt.7 for <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 11:38:14 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Rp+tcz/qMIRMVeg/lbgmwW4nfUf1/PolFqqJxZ81c+w=; b=ATQ6QRVmkGtu8J/irAGwONpxN1iJ9FeBr3mn0It5seDAcHDkAKUag3hJ/q3SDcYeZU sE7YsXh/M07Pav6DYKYtXxBLo9o5+IK+XXLh7XUQ0+Z8XkTov2gKBNZ3SWHcvfP3Kchz 0elqEQww84lfJk3CNbRl/oI/O3uTsNVbvsGKT/BKNpM10Rm93G+IW0+Xi81KrJM08HRL dTzkcui+j/Nw343XNX/QLAdm8xolK7Y4Oair+PVVdxaCVRdxG8lcxo4TUDEXZ8jwZeJO GPnieisi8801voyFuQt2rVyJcnarB/uro98GfvIwpimyqnF2842Jgc3cHK71yXlGisOa y7qg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Rp+tcz/qMIRMVeg/lbgmwW4nfUf1/PolFqqJxZ81c+w=; b=nsOgDXvDNVMPykqmLJe/inKhnwB/OmR8SHTfaPhDeHNaAeUjVYt/e6IOsjhEig7qLq OUxNRQBdzEhwX0dQExLl2C+08Bxun9lDOZAYgFSpSyUE/XitQ95UfxKnJc1f2K5bwC/y kiTiSqPyVRJbN/otcgTyH8U2i+0o00EQf2yIqlIhVKgYoXZ/7mmKOL8PHoffoiiibcqA yMbD5vt87e7ZE9HSAmowyB8LwfDR+EwEiRkfnw3khN0hbwwNsPMag2dqX33xfdwQnn89 SNKukz4ulBdGqY8APWuIlXdSatxLv6ObAo3ppHDnky5TVqvbrLWlDZ+46LgpTYy7eyIB IgKg==
X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV4I7ohJjFjYGjYMM65dCIZLifsie/eSE+5/c2xIunAcYh7Kd+a OIQDF40zUkzJ9p3H2P8dM7n7kq2O
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy5cOz/OSqHZ4BZ94OfguoDxBYTPUziyHSRB0m8IF0s2RqNDhiKOPmHqrGeqsEmLa/GMzehLQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a63:d10e:: with SMTP id k14mr69841832pgg.120.1577648293612; Sun, 29 Dec 2019 11:38:13 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [192.168.178.30] (228.147.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.147.228]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 13sm47499292pfi.78.2019.12.29.11.38.11 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 29 Dec 2019 11:38:12 -0800 (PST)
To: Niels ten Oever <lists@digitaldissidents.org>, architecture-discuss@ietf.org
References: <f13e1588-35e0-2493-93d2-add3480bb207@cs.tcd.ie> <1127343564.5806.1577112317584@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <ebcca2be-6839-8f43-d74f-0e863e32cd2d@cs.tcd.ie> <2068147434.6516.1577178675917@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <LO2P265MB05733E4BD5A72EDEF96D3DE2C2290@LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> <20191227102943.GA14015@nic.fr> <1829722692.7358.1577443983540@appsuite-gw1.open-xchange.com> <20191227134419.GA19644@nic.fr> <m2r20oi8vk.wl-randy@psg.com> <295780f7-ebf3-79e4-0b2d-faaecfa0d984@nomountain.net> <7fedea81-6827-38c2-04b3-5854126b2d52@digitaldissidents.org>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <68c2aa4c-a0f8-6c26-ef2a-53bc67eb4ff8@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 08:38:09 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <7fedea81-6827-38c2-04b3-5854126b2d52@digitaldissidents.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/0mqxlXG4w1QkDs3NjQx8eDpao64>
Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience
X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues <architecture-discuss.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/architecture-discuss>, <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/architecture-discuss/>
List-Post: <mailto:architecture-discuss@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss>, <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 19:38:16 -0000

On 30-Dec-19 02:27, Niels ten Oever wrote:
...
> On 12/27/19 8:28 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> I'd go a bit further. IMHO, the IETF (+IAB) does best by explicitly
>> excluding political, economic or sociological issues from our
>> reasoning *even if they seem relevant*.
> 
> The IETF is caught up in political issues, but hopes that it can stay out of the cross-hairs and continue business as usual.

Yes, because our scope covers technology deployed in almost every political, economic and social environment in the world, so the technology *needs* to be versatile, robust and resilient as a result. I wrote my words above carefully -- we do *best* by excluding those considerations, which does not mean that we always succeed in excluding them.
 
> Technology has political, economic, and sociological implications.

Of course, but they are often extremely hard to predict when designing the technology. No doubt the spear was invented only to kill animals for food.

> If the IETF does not take these into account, someone else is bound to do it for the IETF. Ethical considerations and commitments are an inherent part of pretty much all engineering organizations, I have (and probably will) always will be surprised the IETF really does not want to commit to any framework for ethical, value or norm considerations.

As has been pointed out, that isn't really true, because we do state some values in RFC3935, and assume some (especially the right to privacy) in RFC 1984, 2804 and 7258.

However, resiliency doesn't seem to me to require a discussion of values. It's a very clear technical requirement on its own. Surviving human error, equipment failure, natural disasters, political interference, and acts of war might each generate different resiliency considerations.

Regards,
    Brian