Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core

Joseph Touch <> Mon, 17 August 2020 14:47 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6AFD3A0E89 for <>; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 07:47:12 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.318
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.318 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key)
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OW5VQwPo5n8b for <>; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 07:47:11 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ( []) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E5B33A0E8D for <>; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 07:47:11 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=default; h=To:References:Message-Id:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To: From:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=NM344jbiu1Iq73g3phcuZ7IWB8PAy/bS/s2iP/trGiU=; b=1TGLN7hGYqFzfyU7/oSuXsi4a YVG4k4ZB3xbHcxmu0D2IaeKU4g+Z4mL9jYeYjB1ePWL55QkbbywDxTzyo2zszK4MHA+X50ZTx0KrY GzUHk2BgJzvQ0PEchO6xQV+lJgnhdo8AbZxweGd153eWAha2skSDN0SbReQrGkpzr67R7gZu4wTLT lJqIZRwJ2N6hPmbvaiTAOQtp3j171c/wIaB279qNu8ahDQ7OvRDlKffJO3wQgOb+N7W4CXKz3PQUx KVnj8AM0zOKWcN5PZ0a5Nm9ueeVbyQbAjt7/cyY78ch9MfMcutC+zaw6X12vAfNBScCfyOnL89/9m MDvIbi5hw==;
Received: from ([]:61385 helo=[]) by with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from <>) id 1k7gPh-002rDx-M0; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 10:47:10 -0400
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9E1060C4-57CB-45C1-A330-F30B008B3A1E"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.\))
From: Joseph Touch <>
In-Reply-To: <>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 07:47:04 -0700
Message-Id: <>
References: <> <> <> <>
To: Toerless Eckert <>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.
X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0
X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report
X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname -
X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain -
X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12]
X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain -
X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: authenticated_id:
X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched
Archived-At: <>
Subject: Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 14:47:20 -0000

Hi, Toerless,

> On Aug 17, 2020, at 12:46 AM, Toerless Eckert <> wrote:
> Btw, IMHO: Having an application tell the network exactly what it
> wants from the network is quite a challenging task for applications.
> ...
> Hence we thought of a framework where the application would instead
> attribute traffic as to what it is, e.g.: application FOO, wihthin FOO floX,
> e.g.: X = audio/video/...  Aka: Whatever the application developer was able/
> willing to tell.
> Then one can have a trusted layer that would map this information to
> actual network service requirements/advisory information.

That’s an implementation detail inside the endpoint. The *network* should not be doing that inference:

a) because it is typically made to favor the provider, not the user
b) because it’s often incorrect, either because the needed info isn’t available (encryption) or deliberately obscured (running DNS over ports other than 53)

My broader concern is the latter part of the second one: I don’t like the impact of anti-inference strategies on network architecture. It tends to force designers to reinvent the Internet at other layers (inside HTTP, e.g.).

Ultimately, there are only a few things the network can do with a packet: forward it, queue it, or drop it. Having classes of service that don’t map directly to those behaviors is an invitation for unnecessary state and complexity anyway.

Back to neutrality, though, the point is that the *network* should be neutral to the user and use of a service, not that there should be only one service.