Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience
Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> Mon, 23 December 2019 09:25 UTC
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Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 10:25:19 +0100
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Cc: architecture-discuss@iab.org
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Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience
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Thanks for the initiative, Stephen 1. I strongly support the mission. IMHO, the Internet at large is still a pretty unreliable infrastructure mostly for non-(time)-critical consumption and commerce, and IMHO this needs to change. I am certainly happy to contibute to the program (see below for example points of my background). 2. Network and services resilience A Brian already alluded, there is more to Internet resilience than at e.g.: the naming level. a) Network resilience The most basic form of resilience i have helped to design and deploy use dual-path transmission for critical traffic (finance, video, military, industrial). That still is a maze of not well standardized or even documented approaches and protocols, and we are (IMHO) far away from realizing a vision, where for example a host stack itself could drive such level of resilience automatically (.e.g: MP-TCP not to increase throughput but resilience). But certainly, that overal issue of network-service resilience would be IMHO important to include into the program. Having bits in DetNet, bits in PANRG, and more bits in TSV and other WGs is not an architecture. b) Service resilience As Brian mentioned, ANIMA not only has ANI as a resilient operational plane, but it would also lend itself as a good framework to build further resilient networks and solutions. 3. Scope An interesting experience was in video networks where operators had to decide between sub-second fast convergence and sub 50 msec RSVP-TE tunnel protection. In the end, the per-interruption user experience impact difference was negligible and many operators simply wanted to reduce the total number of user visible interruptions to less than 1 interruption every 4 hour and ended up picking fast-convegence because it eliminated so many more bad-code and bad-operator action induced errors from the more complex to handle RSVP-TE solution. I bring this up just as an example to figure out what should be in scope of the program: User stories, (experience) metric required and design considerations that not only include pure "protocol" aspects (50 msec vs. sub-second), but also metrics such as code and operations complexity. Yes, some of these aspects are hard to specify let alone quantify, but that's why it should be an architecture program and not just a protocol specification program. 4. Politics and Openness IMHO, Resilience and related "metrics" of reliability are at the core of at least the public explanations of several political actions today such as US congress bills (e.g.: "Defending America's 5G Future") and US govt action (such as the Huawei EAR rulings). In face of these political challenges for open global collaboration, i would highly recommend to not charter a program like this as an "by-invitation-only" IAB program (as described in the current draft charter), but as an "everyone-is-welcome-to-contribute" program, more like an IETF working group. Otherwise, the program would be seen as yet another politically divisive step by those not invited to contribute. Cheers Toerless On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 01:32:57PM +0000, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > > The IAB are considering starting up a programme on Internet > resilience as described at [1]. We'd love to get feedback > on that idea, the text at [1] and to find out if people > would like to participate and what topics you might suggest > be considered (or even better, what you'd actually do work > on yourself:-). > > There's no specific deadline for this, but the IAB will > consider this further in the new year, so if you could > take a few minutes to share your thoughts on this before > or over the holidays that'd be great. > > Thanks, > S. > > > [1] https://github.com/intarchboard/resilience/ pub RSA 4096/7B172BEA 2017-12-22 Stephen Farrell (2017) <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> > sub RSA 4096/36CB8BB6 2017-12-22 > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss -- --- tte@cs.fau.de
- [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet r… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Marc Blanchet
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Simon Leinen
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Marc Blanchet
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Yaakov Stein
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Andrew Campling
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… S Moonesamy
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Andrew Campling
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Randy Bush
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Andrew Campling
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… tony.li
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Andrew Campling
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Marc Blanchet
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Melinda Shore
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Scott Brim
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… S Moonesamy
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Yaakov Stein
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Niels ten Oever
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… John C Klensin
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… John Levine
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… S Moonesamy
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Christian
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Brian E Carpenter
- [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet r… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Christian
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Lucy Lynch
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Dan York
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Dan York
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Jared Mauch
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… John C Klensin
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Jeff Tantsura
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet r… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- [arch-d] my summary of resilience thread (Was: po… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Jared Mauch