Re: [arch-d] <draft-lazanski-consolidation-00>

Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> Thu, 12 November 2020 04:00 UTC

Return-Path: <huitema@huitema.net>
X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D72223A1392 for <architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 11 Nov 2020 20:00:21 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.888
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xzzhobgSsRcf for <architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 11 Nov 2020 20:00:20 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com (mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com [209.126.121.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 027F33A1391 for <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>; Wed, 11 Nov 2020 20:00:19 -0800 (PST)
Received: from xse452.mail2web.com ([66.113.197.198] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx169.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <huitema@huitema.net>) id 1kd3mM-000Gzf-RE for architecture-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 05:00:15 +0100
Received: from xsmtp21.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.60]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CWntc0BjwzPK3 for <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>; Wed, 11 Nov 2020 20:00:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [10.5.2.16] (helo=xmail06.myhosting.com) by xsmtp21.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <huitema@huitema.net>) id 1kd3mJ-0005hh-TH for architecture-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 11 Nov 2020 20:00:07 -0800
Received: (qmail 7183 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2020 04:00:07 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.103]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.90]) (envelope-sender <huitema@huitema.net>) by xmail06.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>; 12 Nov 2020 04:00:07 -0000
To: Dominique Lazanski <dml@lastpresslabel.com>, architecture-discuss@ietf.org
References: <3B4C73E8-1215-43CB-B969-56A2554F1348@lastpresslabel.com>
From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Autocrypt: addr=huitema@huitema.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mDMEXtavGxYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdA1ou9A5MHTP9N3jfsWzlDZ+jPnQkusmc7sfLmWVz1Rmu0 J0NocmlzdGlhbiBIdWl0ZW1hIDxodWl0ZW1hQGh1aXRlbWEubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEw3G4 Nwi4QEpAAXUUELAmqKBYtJQFAl7WrxsCGwMFCQlmAYAFCwkIBwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgEC F4AACgkQELAmqKBYtJQbMwD/ebj/qnSbthC/5kD5DxZ/Ip0CGJw5QBz/+fJp3R8iAlsBAMjK r2tmyWyJz0CUkVG24WaR5EAJDvgwDv8h22U6QVkAuDgEXtavGxIKKwYBBAGXVQEFAQEHQJoM 6MUAIqpoqdCIiACiEynZf7nlJg2Eu0pXIhbUGONdAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEEw3G4Nwi4QEpA AXUUELAmqKBYtJQFAl7WrxsCGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQELAmqKBYtJRm2wD7BzeK5gEXSmBcBf0j BYdSaJcXNzx4yPLbP4GnUMAyl2cBAJzcsR4RkwO4dCRqM9CHpVJCwHtbUDJaa55//E0kp+gH
Message-ID: <16eba245-6af8-db43-0249-c94753e692a5@huitema.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 20:00:09 -0800
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <3B4C73E8-1215-43CB-B969-56A2554F1348@lastpresslabel.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D83D70428A068D64411AD7AC"
Content-Language: en-US
X-Originating-IP: 66.113.197.198
X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com
X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.197.0/24
Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.197.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com
X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure
X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15)
X-Recommended-Action: accept
X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0cThwnZT+ODcFyeCwCHoUjupSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVUZbR67CQ7/vm /hHDJU4RXkTNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGDsYLBcJLyHnVrULITPs15U6ts NHuRxlWqWR9fNqLY1ai4Dcwf+CZK8NXgy3In+fX7v3RfxLkaFQQHea1/b7YbPVO05s+oip5EC/YK rMQ9+O9t+TYaqvvx766D6vBkj4PutP0Dzal8myJ8vVhoWnSKP9Tn5/AwQYA8p32I/LmTkdq8pnvZ XWSe7jV34Pxn0vH1Lz/y+awqhw7CmTPsWtYsCV/oEQh3zFZ7AJOfdc5NLopVCPmS+MVojfDUugvn Zl+jhHQOLtWk4clq0P6Ltvr/5Zl+BJt+8hYKwgejR0Z9YPn97p3CKmEi95YYeXPNWMiahaC2TJpF rGrq1WX76kTmg5w7R2/M+XaT5BLifEp8KpWu41J1t4cteGI4vH6PuMQp0kaOEXLuWd+6zLg4wp8u XxPcpGyeyPXKNTABBN67jV7JvFCbAD7w3FUirQwmJIqD2OUMeHyTpNN0eXybX/w7/3ZCM0u5uBlK VwmNWN494pUPBFtmg5GCGtjOaQC74kK2uZ9agFNFUxUZLPnr1LybeJhBF+yOavR3Z+X3BZ1+bDW9 zM1SY+9whLXwyGokTgXhMYjMUqZL6iBLUS97OHj8b53ugII7ouYCgfwcsP8qn8jymNgFzWRkuRvd 2hsh/DKjJTkETFTHdBwnk7JDmeUy/CxTYSU7bOY3VNMQgkFetgU14O9uIBc4R2FHvu2iptL1aPVI 7SRheNMtfUmGm8f3604vidrAbzPztKfs4s5XguL2uhT3KQx41zCmSSvPnIYmHzVM9UIEoXM5sSSr Anu6iO3E7PNP9hZ2YPyDLCAHXnUsy647Mn0zwmGzAi3Zn+Ydr38cN0L29hpYqOQomv/Sn4OJCdFr QGG66XtzjgLUDW/OzgRwsx26JIrnuz41QdUugEEc+Eql4Tj+X3YkLe5buSZuZ5OAUoGBziSYFLZu u6wUZYupFCxOQUA2Zz77xVbE
X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/7Zvg_zn8Lc_zcp7MmI_mgHDr8z0>
Subject: Re: [arch-d] <draft-lazanski-consolidation-00>
X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues <architecture-discuss.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/architecture-discuss>, <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/architecture-discuss/>
List-Post: <mailto:architecture-discuss@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss>, <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 04:00:22 -0000

A specific point on the statement in the draft that "Both Christian
Huitema and Julien Maisonneuve noted concentration, which leads to
consolidation, as an effect of economies of scale and network effects in
business models in the implementation of business practices."  There are
lots of possible interpretations behind that statement, including the
classic "natural monopoly" defense of, well, monopolies. It is very
clear that both effects exist, but also that investors who explicitly
seek to achieve monopoly do not rely on those two effects alone, and
that standards have a role to play.

The network effect is in full swing with social networks. Indeed, most
of the upstarts social networks do fail rapidly, because they fail to
achieve a critical mass of users. There is a long list there, including
very well funded initiatives like Google+. The economies of scale
effects are also very visible in e-mail services. Effective e-mail
service requires big investments to manage spam. In practice, just two
providers concentrate a huge part of mail service: Google's GMail and
Microsoft's Outlook. Dismissing these effects would be very misleading.
Scale also brings knowledge, be it technical knowledge of the
application domain or the soft knowledge that comes from observing the
behaviors of a large and diverse user base. The products of less 
knowledgeable competitors will often be perceived as inferior. Network
effects and scale provide advantages to providers who achieve them, and
contribute to "naturally" maintaining dominant positions.

On the other hand, dominant positions bring lots of advantages to
whoever achieves them. In the old industries, dominant positions
translated into pricing power. For "free" services, dominant positions
translate into gigantic accumulation of data on users, monetized through
advertisements. In any case, dominant positions are known to bring big
financial rewards. Investors will push entrepreneurs to achieve them
with a variety of strategies including selling services at a loss or
encouraging competitors to merge.

I will stop there, but I have grown sensitive to the "natural monopoly"
arguments, and I wanted to clarify my position.

-- Christian Huitema

On 11/9/2020 9:09 AM, Dominique Lazanski wrote:
> Hey Mark and I have a draft on consolidation. 
>
> Protocol and Engineering Effects of Consolidation can be found
> here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lazanski-consolidation/
>
> If you have any thoughts or comments, we would love to have them!
>
> Dominique
>
> _______________________________________________
> Architecture-discuss mailing list
> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss