Re: [arch-d] Call for Comment: <draft-iab-for-the-users-02> (The Internet is for End Users)

Brian E Carpenter <> Fri, 07 February 2020 19:34 UTC

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To: Vittorio Bertola <>,,
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From: Brian E Carpenter <>
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Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2020 08:34:54 +1300
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Subject: Re: [arch-d] Call for Comment: <draft-iab-for-the-users-02> (The Internet is for End Users)
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Hi Vittorio,
On 07-Feb-20 23:21, Vittorio Bertola wrote:
>> Il 07/02/2020 02:13 Brian E Carpenter <> ha scritto:
>>>    While some civil society organisations specialise in technology and
>>>    Internet policy, they typically do not have the capacity to
>>>    participate broadly, nor are they necessarily representative of the
>>>    larger Internet community.
>> Indeed. Except for ISOC.
>> I find this whole section "4.1.  Engaging the Internet Community" off track.
>> Instead, I believe it should recommend improved IETF engagement *with ISOC*,
>> with the objective of helping ISOC do this part of its job even better,
>> and giving the IETF substantive feedback as a result.
> While parsing your comment, it occurred to me that perhaps we are thinking at two different definitions of "the Internet Community" (as used, but not defined, in the document). I understood "the Internet community" to include any individual that uses the Internet, i.e. several billion people. But perhaps you are thinking only of the technical community?

Well, as Christian Huitema pointed out in a different context (RFC Editor discussion), the notion of the technical community has very fuzzy boundaries. However, I was indeed thinking of the wider community, not the technical community. Holding a dialogue with the wider community is immensely difficult, and we've known that for 25 years. I'll come back to that in a moment when I reply to Eliot.
> Otherwise, even in specialised Internet policy venues such as the IGF, you will find very few non-technical individuals and organizations that feel represented by ISOC. It is usually considered as an organization strictly for the Internet industry, an old engineers club focused on the promotion of those specific views and interests. In a way, the IETF speaking with ISOC would be perceived like the IETF speaking with itself.

I think that's a profound misunderstanding of ISOC, but it illustrates *exactly* why the IETF would do an even worse job of talking to 8 billion people than ISOC does. I have no concept at all of what the IETF could do to even attempt such a dialogue. If after 28 years the ISOC hasn't found out how to do it, we certainly can't.
> (Actually, thinking at it, the outrage sparked among many NGOs by ISOC's actions on dot org is good evidence that the two sets of interests are at odds.)

The big problem is the profound differences of understanding. I won't say more since that would send us wildly off topic.