Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core
Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> Wed, 19 August 2020 03:10 UTC
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Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 05:02:39 +0200
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: architecture-discuss@ietf.org
Message-ID: <20200819030239.GJ62842@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <754DE168-DF3B-4471-A145-39C6143E538A@comcast.net> <FB381338-A278-45B2-A40B-3A065E3A3ED1@strayalpha.com> <1fd2ed7d-d4bc-c5b7-9a4a-7966d5e60513@gmail.com> <20200817074637.GW62842@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <60B2B44D-5E6D-4CB2-AD63-1A8CB846BFA3@strayalpha.com> <0e575946-dfd4-7753-8c34-47987d0b3c7e@huitema.net> <20200817164256.GB62842@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <b3044f47-d2a0-7ef3-4a0e-4e6b9e3023ba@gmail.com> <20200818052641.GE62842@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <6998f7af-7834-3aa3-300d-410036cd2466@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core
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On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 09:23:31AM +1200, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 18-Aug-20 17:26, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > > > Multiple parallel TCP connections to overcome TCP issues with high > > capacity high loss paths even in the absence of congestion was always > > a bad workaround. > > It's certainly a workaround, but why was it particularly bad? Ships in the night (no coupled CC) between the multiple parallel TCP sessions across the same path. Given how DoE HEP money was repsonsible for a lot of US/EU transcontinental capacity even in the 80th/90th, there must have been enough money around to look at this problem before 2000, but alas progress was limited by having to muck around in BSD kernel for the most part. > The context where GridFTP was developed and used was the world of very > high capacity links between major Big Data sites; it's actually a > good example for RFC8799 that we overlooked. No worries. Everything exccept the paths used to grow amazon, facebook and google was and is is limited domains ;-)) > If you really want maximum throughput on such links, which also have > very low bit error rates, you can use a non-windowing, rate-controlled > transport protocol with simplified error handling. I think one of the issues was that in the 90th a lot of the paths used by researchers where still controlled/limited-domains, and when they started to buy more into general purpose internet capacity, the available paths became even worse due to bufferbloat, which maybe explaining more focus on hose really bad high capacity, high loss paths later on. > But that's not an IETF problem, really. Why not. AFAIK it was, is and should be. Even had an FECFRAME WG for a while. > > Digital Fountain was already selling software 15 years > > ago with scatter storage and network coding gather retrieval. Still > > network coding researchers seem to claim this stuff is new today. > > The network coding literature goes back to at least 2000**. Yes, but at that time the more exciting new usse of it was multicast, only a few yers later did the technology became a mayor player to solve the supposedly easer problem of bad high capacity unicast paths (a least from the one off stories i was told). > The network coding people I know are aiming at a different problem > area today: poor quality wireless and/or overloaded satellite links. Sure. research wise they probably think the other areas are done, but that still doesn't mean we have a good ubiquitously availale NC based unicast reliable transport standardized. IPR played a big roole IMHO in throttling wide ranging adoption/standardization. Cheers Toerless > Exactly the opposite of the Big Data scenario. (However, I am not > tracking the NWCRG. I am rather amazed by the lack of references > to the extensive literature in RFC8406, but draft-irtf-nwcrg-nwc-ccn-reqs > does better.) > > > A lot of of the network side problems of this are the result of the > > traditional, uncontrolled transit SP paths, aka: the classical Internet > > model. > > Indeed. > > Regards > Brian > > ** R. Ahlswede, N. Cai, S.-Y.R. Li and R.W. Yeung, ???Network > Information Flow???, IEEE-IT, vol. 46, pp. 1204-1216, 2000. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:54:34AM +1200, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> On 18-Aug-20 04:42, Toerless Eckert wrote: > >> ... > >> > >>> -> I would like for traffic to get bandwidth share indpendent of the > >>> number of 5 tuple flows it utilizes (no gaming the system). But > >>> rather fair per subscriber (weighted by how much the subscriber pays). > >> > >> You just broke GridFTP, used in Big Science to move terabyte datasets > >> around the world efficiently. It's not gaming, it's achieving throughput > >> despite defects in TCP. But the topic is very much alive there, since > >> GridFTP is now unsupported. > >> > >> For further reading: > >> https://twiki.cern.ch/twiki/bin/view/LCG/ThirdPartyCopy > >> > >> Brian > > -- --- tte@cs.fau.de
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core John Grant
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Jared Mauch
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Scott Shenker
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Christian Huitema
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Scott Shenker
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Joseph Touch
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core John Grant
- [arch-d] Fwd: A Public Option for the Core John Day
- Re: [arch-d] Fwd: A Public Option for the Core Joe Touch
- Re: [arch-d] Fwd: A Public Option for the Core Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] Fwd: A Public Option for the Core Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] Fwd: A Public Option for the Core John Day
- Re: [arch-d] Fwd: A Public Option for the Core Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] Fwd: A Public Option for the Core Andrew Campling
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Joseph Touch
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Joseph Touch
- Re: [arch-d] Fwd: A Public Option for the Core Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Christian Huitema
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Christian Huitema
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Joseph Touch
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Joseph Touch
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core John Levine
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Joseph Touch
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Marie-Jose Montpetit
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Andrew Campling
- Re: [arch-d] A Public Option for the Core Toerless Eckert