Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Sun, 29 December 2019 17:11 UTC
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Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2019 12:11:17 -0500
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Patrik Fältström <paf=40frobbit.se@dmarc.ietf.org>
cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>, Andrew Campling <andrew.campling@419.consulting>, architecture-discuss@iab.org
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Subject: Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet resilience
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--On Sunday, December 29, 2019 12:18 +0100 Patrik Fältström <paf=40frobbit.se@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > On 29 Dec 2019, at 10:39, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > >> On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 06:32:54PM +0000, >> Andrew Campling <andrew.campling@419.consulting> wrote >> a message of 229 lines which said: >> >>> The lack of an effective, global policy making body for the >>> internet is a problem that needs to be addressed as it is a >>> significant gap. >> >> This statement is questionable. As noted by Randy Bush and >> Brian Carpenter, such a body would have an extraordinary >> power (in the past, even the worst dictator had a power >> limited to the borders of the country), and then we would >> have to think about how to limit and control that power. > > And more importantly, IF there is a governance body, there > must by definition be something that is to be governed. > > I have hard time understanding what that could be. > > Coordination is something completely different, and we should > aim towards continuing the effective coordination we have done > so far. Patrik (and others), I've been trying to stay out of this, but I think you (plural) are, at best, oversimplifying the situation. There is a tested model for doing exactly what several people have suggested would be difficult or impossible. That is to declare a particular communications medium (or, for that matter, something else) to be a national asset and/or problem and then treat the points at which traffic crosses national boundaries as a border crossing issue. That is almost exactly what was done with the PSTN back in the days before deregulation, when most or all carriers within countries were either run by the government or very tightly regulated and when international exchange points were a matter for treaties, often bilaterial ones, and eventually treaties within an international regulatory framework. The analogy is less clear and more obnoxious, but one could say almost the same thing about international trade in pornography and illicit drugs, especially because the definition of what should be treated as illegal differs from one country to another. The PSTN experience shows that what "can be governed" is content, modes of information exchange, who can carry traffic across national boundaries and under what conditions, and even who has access to the relevant systems. We've also seen national bans on cryptography and regular demands for law enforcement access to keys or back doors into algorithms. That we have successfully pushed back on some of those attempts in the past is no guarantee about the future. Pretending that the IETF is solely concerned about technical matters doesn't really work either and we are not consistent about it. RFC 7258 is ultimately a political statement because the attack it focuses on is an attack on privacy. The desirability of privacy is a shared value among most IETF participants (even though we have some disagreements about what is important to be protected and from whom) but its value is definitely not recognized (and recognized in the same way) internationally. It could have been a more technical statement if it had said "if one embraces the following values, then PM is bad news and the following should be done (or not done)", but it doesn't. The contrast with RFC 8404 is interesting because the latter is much closer to an "if you/we do X then the operational consequences are Y" technical statement. My own concern is the possibility of some well-publicized incident or set of incidents triggering demands that legislators, regulators, or other governmental bodies Do Something and the very high odds that what they do will be ill-advised, especially if the IETF and similar bodies are doing work that is easily portrayed as not policy-neutral and that have clearly failed to prevent whatever the triggering events are. I am not proposing this (partially because I think we are likely to get it wrong) but, if we really wanted to be policy-neutral, documents whose tone was closer to "we think doing X would be really bad because Y but, if you choose to do it, here is how to minimize collateral damage" (where X might be "PM", "disconnecting from the Internet", "wholesale filtering based on content", "banning encryption without back doors", or other things), might be much more helpful than the path we seem to be on, that IAB programme as it appears to be shaping up from this discussion included. Thanks for reading this far; back to lurking. john
- [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet r… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Marc Blanchet
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Simon Leinen
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Marc Blanchet
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Yaakov Stein
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Ciavaglia, Laurent (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Andrew Campling
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… S Moonesamy
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Andrew Campling
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Randy Bush
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Andrew Campling
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… tony.li
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Andrew Campling
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Marc Blanchet
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Melinda Shore
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Scott Brim
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… S Moonesamy
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Yaakov Stein
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Niels ten Oever
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Patrik Fältström
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… John C Klensin
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… John Levine
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… S Moonesamy
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Christian
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Brian E Carpenter
- [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet r… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Christian
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Lucy Lynch
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Dan York
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Dan York
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Jared Mauch
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… John C Klensin
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Jeff Tantsura
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Internet r… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- [arch-d] my summary of resilience thread (Was: po… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] possible new IAB programme on Intern… Jared Mauch