Re: [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#5

Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> Mon, 21 September 2020 06:54 UTC

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To: "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" <pengshuping@huawei.com>, "apn@ietf.org" <apn@ietf.org>
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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Subject: Re: [arch-d] Questions for APN: Q#5
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Shuping,

I am reading your use cases, and my immediate reaction is that this
developments should not be addressed solely in the routing or IP layers.
You are proposing to enrich the network service proposed to transport
and applications, which amounts to creating new APIs. Such works affects
multiple layers, and should be coordinated between multiple layers.

I also see that the description of application requirements is very
thin. The drafts mention augmented reality and online games, and focus
largely on latency requirements for these applications. The latency has
two main components: delays in the wires, and queues in the routers. The
APN draft for example mentions players of games using servers on another
continent, and thus experiencing large latency. But that latency is
largely due to the distance. That distance is not going to be magically
reduced by smarter queue processing. The same is even more true for
video conferencing or telepresence applications. I live near Seattle. If
I want to talk to my mother in France, the bits have to be carried
across America and the across the Atlantic ocean. No amount of smart
routing will change that. Application developers are well aware of these
issues, and have designed their applications in consequence.

There is a lot of tension between Internet Architecture and the
"application aware" proposal. The Internet was built on a fundamental
decision to not be application aware. Instead, the routers carry packets
of bits, independently of which application uses these bits. That way,
new applications can constantly be invented, without requiring
modifications in the network or permissions from the network operators.
This has proven to be key for the development of the Internet. I don't
think that we want to change that. Even if we did I don't think that the
discussion should take place solely in some specialized routing working
groups.

-- Christian Huitema


On 9/20/2020 7:19 PM, Pengshuping (Peng Shuping) wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
>  
>
> #5. What are the valuable use cases/usage scenarios of APN?
>
>  
>
> Drafts have been posted on various use cases such as Game
> Accelerating, Edge computing, SD-WAN etc.
>
> 1)      
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-apn-problem-statement-usecases-01
>
> 2)     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-liu-apn-edge-usecase-00
>
> 3)     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhang-apn-acceleration-usecase-00
>
> 4)     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yang-apn-sd-wan-usecase-00
>
>  
>
> Use cases have also been presented and discussed during the APN side
> meeting@IETF108. Please find the slides.
>
> https://github.com/APN-Community/IETF108-Side-Meeting-APN
>
>  
>
> There have been some discussions on these use cases in the APN mailing
> list as well. Please find the archives.
>
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/c-fQP4LRpe6yj3lJBsaRxTVcWHA/
>
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/MCVuBYa7jgtJsIDEpbGTZ0U8Bvg/
>
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/apn/c-fQP4LRpe6yj3lJBsaRxTVcWHA/
>
>  
>
> More interesting use cases are waiting to be explored. Please let us
> know if you have any other use cases. Thank you!
>
>  
>
> Best regards,
>
> Shuping
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:*Lizhenbin
> *Sent:* Monday, September 14, 2020 10:35 PM
> *To:* apn@ietf.org
> *Cc:* Pengshuping (Peng Shuping) <pengshuping@huawei.com>
> *Subject:* Question List for APN
>
>  
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> Thanks very much for your attention to APN work. After much
> preparation work, we summarized the key questions to be clarified for
> APN which also were always asked. In fact in the past discussion and
> the APN side meeting of IETF108, many of these questions were
> discussed and clarified. Here we propose these questions together for
> your convenience.
>
>  
>
> The questions to be clarified are as follows:
>
> #1. Which layer is for APN to do the application-aware work?
>
> #2. Does APN provide services within a limited-domain or Internet?
>
> #3. Which area in IETF would the APN work fit better?
>
> #4. What is the relationship between APN and other attempts in IETF’s
> history?
>
> #5. What are the valuable use cases/usage scenarios of APN?
>
> #6. Is the fine-granularity operations needed/desired in the network?
>
> #7. Why not just use DSCP?
>
> #8. Does APN violate network neutrality?
>
> #9. Will APN raise security issues since application-aware information
> is carried in the APN packets?
>
> #10. Will APN raise privacy issues since application-aware information
> is carried in the APN packets?
>
>  
>
> Shuping Peng will send the detailed answers for these questions in the
> mailing list in the following one or two weeks. The questions and
> answers may be not only be sent in the APN mailing list, but also be
> copied to the architecture discussion mailing list and the network
> token mailing list for more cross-area feedback if necessary.
>
>  
>
> If you have any comments on these questions and answers, we can go on
> to discuss through the mailing list.
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Zhenbin (Robin)
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:*Apn [mailto:apn-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Lizhenbin
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 18, 2020 7:22 PM
> *To:* apn@ietf.org <mailto:apn@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* [Apn] Welcome to APN Mailing List
>
>  
>
> Hi Folks,
>
>  
>
> Welcome to join the APN mailing list. We are glad to have more
> discussion through the mailing list as the follow-up of the IETF108
> APN side meeting.
>
> In the process of APN work, many historic work items such as SPUD,
> PLUS, etc. have been proposed. It has been tried to be clarified that
> APN focuses
>
> on the network layer and limited domains. Concerns on the security and
> privacy issues also have been proposed many times about the work. It also
>
> has been tried to be clarified that in the trustable limited domains
> the security and privacy issues can be under control. These are the
> reasons why APN
>
> work is based in the RTG area instead of ART/TSV areas.
>
>  
>
> But because of too much historic work to be clarified and its
> proposing the cross-area discussion for which RTG/APP/TSV/INT/SEC/IRTF
> are involved, it is
>
> necessary to have more discussion to clarify the scope and work items
> for APN. We wish the mailing list would be helpful to the work and
> promoting the
>
> cross-area communication to understand each other better.
>
>  
>
> You can get yourself up to speed with our discussions so far by seeing
> the materials at <https://github.com/APN-Community/>, especially the
> materials
>
> From the virtual IETF 108  APN side meeting at
> <https://github.com/APN-Community/IETF108-Side-Meeting-APN>. This link
> also gives you pointers to
>
> some of the relevant Internet-Drafts.
>
>  
>
> Over the next few weeks we will try to guide discussion by introducing
> some questions for debate. But please also raise your own issues and
> concerns
>
> and contribute to the exchanges on this list.
>
>  
>
> Look forwarding to have more fun discussion in the mailing list.
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Dan & Zhenbin
>
>  
>
>  
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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