Re: [arch-d] iesg: Re: Updates on IAB mailing lists

Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> Tue, 21 April 2020 00:50 UTC

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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 02:50:43 +0200
From: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
Cc: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>, "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>, IETF-Discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [arch-d] iesg: Re: Updates on IAB mailing lists
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Hi Joel,

Don't you think it is sufficient for the mailing list
to self-manage ? i have seen nothing worse than on any of
the other 9999 IETF mailling lists that are not ietf@ietf.org.

Indeed, i think we have seen some good examples of self-management
on the list in the past month. Tell me if you think that did
or did not work well.

I for once would be afraid, that if specific persons where
given more power to control the scope of the discussion,
we might not even have had the technical exchange to answer
to specific claims made. On the other hand, i have seen bad
examples of the SAA model on the ietf@ietf.org mailing list:

An SAA model can quickly deteriorates IMHO into more and
more passive-aggressive language policing discussion on all sides as
opposed to best effort minimizing robust language and sticking
to the technical topics - which i think what happens easier
without SAA.

I am very interested to hear you express a more specific definition
of what you think should be in scope of architecture-discuss than what
is written in the current mailmain "about".  But probably better to
discuss this in a separate thread.

Cheers
    Toerless

On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 05:54:12PM -0400, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> My read has been that architecture-discuss was for Internet Architecture
> topics of relevance to the IAB or IETF.
> 
> That does not, in my book, include random musing about research projects
> that may or may not lead to something in some ill-defined time in the
> future.
> 
> And even if you disagree with the specific example, it does mean that there
> are clearly things which are off-topic for architecture-discuss. Which means
> that someone needs to be authorized to deal with such things when they
> become problematic.
> 
> Yours,
> Joel
> 
> On 4/20/2020 4:13 PM, Mary Barnes wrote:
> > Thanks - I hadn't followed Toeless' thread where he encountered the
> > problem that triggered his email.
> > 
> > Just to make sure I understand - the architecture-discuss list is
> > intended only for topics that the IAB deems of interest specifically to
> > the IAB and NOT a general community list to discuss things related to
> > the Internet architecture.  Is that correct?   If so, then it does seem
> > we need a list where folks can have discussion of technical topics that
> > aren't necessarily related to work IAB is doing.   I know we've
> > discussed in the past that the IETF discussion list is most suitable for
> > those discussions but I think most would agree that the list has a whole
> > lot more discussion of how we do non-technical things than technical (I
> > would guess 90/10 for the most part).   I think many don't pay near the
> > attention to the list that they might if it were technical discussions -
> > for example, I subscribe to that list using my general email that I use
> > for not real work.
> > 
> > So, one question I would have then, is whether it's thus only
> > appropriate for someone in the community to post to architecture-discuss
> > if they are asking specific questions on current IAB activities and
> > documents?
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Mary.
> > 
> > On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 2:52 PM Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com
> > <mailto:melinda.shore@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > 
> >     On 4/20/20 11:49 AM, Mary Barnes wrote:
> >      > Personally, I think it's a handy list to have
> >      > for purely technical discussions as opposed to all the non-technical
> >      > discussions on the main IETF discussion list.
> > 
> >     Right, but I think it's clear that it's not every technical
> >     discussion, which circles back around to Toerless's argument.
> > 
> >     Melinda
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Architecture-discuss mailing list
> > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Architecture-discuss mailing list
> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss

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tte@cs.fau.de