Re: [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centralization vs Users
Hesham ElBakoury <helbakoury@gmail.com> Fri, 05 May 2023 21:31 UTC
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From: Hesham ElBakoury <helbakoury@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 14:31:20 -0700
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To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Cc: Arnaud Taddei <arnaud.taddei=40broadcom.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, architecture-discuss@ietf.org, Internet Architecture Board <iab@iab.org>
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Subject: Re: [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centralization vs Users
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Which protocol or proposal was not accepted by IETF because it may lead to Internet fragmentation? Hesham On Fri, May 5, 2023, 10:14 AM Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> wrote: > Brian asks: "Is there scope for IAB guidance to the IETF about what > aspects of protocols, especially security protocols, might encourage or > discourage either centralization or splintering?" I think there is, or > more likely, that the IAB (and the IETF) have better find something. > > Because the alternative position is, "Yeah, we design protocols that can > just as well enable decentralization or foster monopolization, be good > for society or be atrocious. Whether they do one or the other is someone > else's problem." And that sounds very much like "Our job is to put the > rockets up. Where they fall, that's another department." > > -- Christian Huitema > > On 5/4/2023 11:14 PM, Arnaud Taddei wrote: > > Good write up Brian which reminds me 2 things + 1 addition > > > > 1) DINRG had a similar discussion in IETF 116 on the theme "does a new > technolog drive those tendendencies?” (This was about centralisation) > > 2) We looked at IMAP for example and I reminded a discussion I had > perhaps 25 years ago with Bill Yeager and he had a really good metaphor > (and that was prior to “social networks” era), which then led me to another > such discussion with Mark Crispin (rip) > > > > The addition is that my brain is missing security in the picture as a > "superposition state” (and I use Quantum Physics on purpose … not just in > memory of our joint past at CERN!) in particular recognising the > intrication of privacy and security. > > > > Now I thought initially ‘because defence is creating its own twist here’ > but then I realized that to a certain degree this is as well because each > of the 3 constituencies of your picture are not just defenders, they are > attackers too in multiple forms. > > > > I am not sure (this early morning) if this is a primary level issue or > if it is a secondary level issue in your proposal. > > > > Hope this helps a little bit > > > >> On 4 May 2023, at 23:39, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> After a little off-list discussion, I have a few more general thoughts > >> on this topic. (I won't identify the other person in that discussion, > >> to respect their privacy.) > >> > >> I mentioned that some security technology that we develop could be > >> "dual use", e.g. useful both for privacy and useful for walled gardens. > >> So perhaps we should be careful when evaluating new ideas that they > >> cannot be used for undesirable purposes as well as the intended purpose. > >> If we consider that both excessive centralization and excessive > >> splintering (a.k.a. fragmentation) are bad things, does a new technology > >> drive those tendendencies? Could we design it differently to avoid > >> this? > >> > >> Is there scope for IAB guidance to the IETF about what aspects of > >> protocols, especially security protocols, might encourage or discourage > >> either centralization or splintering? > >> > >> That could be a productive use of the IAB's resources where we might > >> have some impact. Discussion of wider societal, commercial and > >> political issues in the IAB and IETF would get nowhere, and in my > >> opinion is best left to ISOC. > >> > >> There's very clearly a 3-way tussle, and that makes all discussion > >> difficult, especially since each national government has different > >> goals. ASCII art: > >> > >> Users > >> (freedom of action, > >> privacy) > >> / \ > >> / \ > >> / \ > >> National Global > >> governments -------- businesses > >> (defend or (capture & > >> control exploit > >> citizens & customers) > >> economy) > >> > >> Regards > >> Brian Carpenter > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Architecture-discuss mailing list > >> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > >> > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss&source=gmail-imap&ust=1683841175000000&usg=AOvVaw3DIB56mqn7ZU0a53yuDvJE > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Architecture-discuss mailing list > > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture-discuss mailing list > Architecture-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss >
- [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragmentatio… IAB Executive Administrative Manager
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Bob Hinden
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Andrew G. Malis
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Dominique Lazanski
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Arnaud Taddei
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Eliot Lear
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Arnaud Taddei
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [arch-d] [EXT] Re: IAB Technical Discussion o… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Arnaud Taddei
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Arnaud Taddei
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Arnaud Taddei
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Tommy Pauly
- [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centraliz… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] [EXTERNAL] Re: IAB Technical Discuss… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [arch-d] [IAB] IAB Technical Discussion on Fr… Wes Hardaker
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centr… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centr… Arnaud Taddei
- Re: [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centr… Toerless Eckert
- [arch-d] public recordings of IAB meetings or not… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] public recordings of IAB meetings or… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centr… Christian Huitema
- Re: [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centr… Dominique Lazanski
- Re: [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centr… Tony Li
- Re: [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centr… David R. Oran
- Re: [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centr… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centr… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] public recordings of IAB meetings or… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] public recordings of IAB meetings or… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centr… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [arch-d] [IAB] Splintering (fragmentation) vs… Colin Perkins
- Re: [arch-d] public recordings of IAB meetings or… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centr… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centr… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Watson Ladd
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centr… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centr… Arnaud Taddei
- Re: [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centr… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [arch-d] [EXT] Re: IAB Technical Discussion o… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centr… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centr… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [arch-d] IAB Technical Discussion on Fragment… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [arch-d] [EXT] Re: IAB Technical Discussion o… Brian E Carpenter