Re: [arch-d] [IAB] Call for Comment: <draft-iab-for-the-users-02> (The Internet is for End Users)

"Martin Thomson" <> Thu, 06 February 2020 14:28 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C364120889 for <>; Thu, 6 Feb 2020 06:28:58 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.7
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.b=k0+GDSDJ; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.b=j7YpBbJP
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iXo3DVNBIWmD for <>; Thu, 6 Feb 2020 06:28:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ( []) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54AF012080C for <>; Thu, 6 Feb 2020 06:28:55 -0800 (PST)
Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal []) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFB25478; Thu, 6 Feb 2020 09:28:53 -0500 (EST)
Received: from imap2 ([]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 06 Feb 2020 09:28:53 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm1; bh=8YXnKgoA6WmZIhs9dJpPsGdQgjl5khN gEd+w9/TdkAE=; b=k0+GDSDJixIQpZLzRM6k8bTbJ6etW0C3IKtS6iFIe2kL0Fp oLanm/bUSsJAkXR3vn1cQkyJ/Ld6Gujqyf8P/2uq3Cm11AK40XyhPhvbpoPNLMNI LPJ+a+xEnG0v70NRVgqy0kwDITgX/pHkvk8Hwa/gkpafHC0U8vYK7xMfqlZ4ZhIL qig7AD9jfcrrKTfDd+OKwd4RGKS4fs2JVInf3dJevlSNS7WCOsCa6ovIXHtO6wTk aATZXop1M/H/j0HrQ/fld8Tmxyc5JG1GEIs8uKi70TkVSmAqOlU4uVn7zahoSbmh gO6vC7s6FSov3oPQ5fCwym4dRXfMbO+qU5mAraQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=8YXnKg oA6WmZIhs9dJpPsGdQgjl5khNgEd+w9/TdkAE=; b=j7YpBbJPtdJujcYbEZJlOv iKr3LF1vGxV9qxaX/Ie4guvYBOT4fET2wFP9IYKygvf6e0wIwSSiOOPHhn4K5sS9 L8PSxsCIWJ1VnvEMAbgjurRToZ1pUmZgKTTpwrIx7HAbLEU+tJBW30w9UGevYvJ3 TncMYm5D/LtpZZ2Uh7yGPCE0LtJ5N1hdLvd1GJ751BxBilnKQN1ijd9zTp63aw48 IVPMTIEEvLHV9kpVV/vPSLx3WJU3kOK62ElacADTH6jW0Rfhi7wiE4OCuejsjMMZ krTGWWl4UMtIAu0R3fjBhqnAGS9ukL7Xo/JhUaSFPXIDVfGAjtJIlizYubkSzp1Q ==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:pSI8XoFaGJOKJyguX-ybkjWg0dyl9fCrH8tPN6LISuwLxZ3NvSAMWA>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrheefgdeigecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtre dtreerjeenucfhrhhomhepfdforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehlohif vghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpeiffedrohhrghdpfihikhhiphgvug hirgdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhr ohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvght
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:pSI8XpjBYp6Zbkx-1h4Xf_V5GihbL-Z0QZDmnoQGIX2sxcQ7s9zlhg> <xmx:pSI8XpcPZHHO1VJ2_HuL3IVYH8o_GSzdoBt7k10iMptDm2VA4PyPYA> <xmx:pSI8Xnxzwc6L7Eb395O_E5WKls0tzPWOi2nWOu8-FZN907vQ8YKX-A> <xmx:pSI8XqwRrkPtYnNeENEPtcEhBue0mdRE3GPbOSQ3JrgMpM9JAeHC6A>
Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id E174FE00AF; Thu, 6 Feb 2020 09:28:52 -0500 (EST)
X-Mailer: Webmail Interface
User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-802-g7a41c81-fmstable-20200203v1
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <>
In-Reply-To: <>
References: <> <>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2020 15:28:31 +0100
From: "Martin Thomson" <>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <>,,
Content-Type: text/plain
Archived-At: <>
Subject: Re: [arch-d] =?utf-8?q?=5BIAB=5D_Call_for_Comment=3A_=3Cdraft-iab-fo?= =?utf-8?q?r-the-users-02=3E_=28The_Internet_is_for_End_Users=29?=
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2020 14:28:58 -0000

Hi Joel,

On Thu, Feb 6, 2020, at 01:24, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> But the underlying tone that the End User concerns should take 
> precedence over everything else seems to be incorrect.

Are you suggesting that it is incorrect in that it is not a provable statement in a mathematical sense and more a value judgment?

>From my perspective, that value judgment is right (in the moral sense) and that we should be saying this.  Having the IAB say this is also important, though I would of course be happier if the IETF said the same.  This statement is consistent with similar statements from the IETF (as referenced, RFC 3935), and other organizations (see for example the W3C position <>).

As a letter to the IETF, I hope that it has weight, but it does not set out to have any sort of normative force.  Choosing a different basis from which to design a protocol would not automatically disqualify it from consideration for publication on the IETF stream, though I hope that people would be motivated to ask pointed questions or contest something that, for instance, might favour operations to the detriment of individual interests.  Arguably, we already do that; see RFCs 7871 and 7974 for published cases of where that happened with different results.

You cite some examples that seem to imply that you think that this general assertion is wrong in general, namely connected "stuff" and people who operate the network (though not those who build and design it, curiously).  Both of those concerns are addressed in the draft.  To sharpen those points: network operations exist to serve the network, which exists to serve the users of that network; devices exist to serve a range of use cases, which generally ultimately have users also.  Draw a longer chain and the value to people becomes more diffuse and abstract; see also <>.  But the draft also recognizes the potential for instances where the balance of interests might end up favouring other entities.

I do see this as a partial refutation of the tussle theory, to Bernard's point, but I don't see a need to address that more directly.

It's true that we cannot always predict the effect of our choices, but it seems to me that there is a prevailing attitude that says we MUST NOT consider things like social implications.  That to me is where we go wrong.  Good engineering considers all the requirements, not just the convenient ones.