Re: [arch-d] [IAB] Call for Comment: <draft-iab-for-the-users-02> (The Internet is for End Users)

Mark Nottingham <> Fri, 07 February 2020 15:54 UTC

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From: Mark Nottingham <>
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Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 16:54:06 +0100
Cc: Martin Thomson <>,,
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Subject: Re: [arch-d] [IAB] Call for Comment: <draft-iab-for-the-users-02> (The Internet is for End Users)
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Hi Joel,

Just my personal .02 -- I think there are some adjustments we can make to parts of the document -- in particular, the abstract -- to avoid the impression that it's a declaration of the tussle being over. That having been said, I very much agree with Martin's characterisation here regarding "thumbs on scales". 


> On 6 Feb 2020, at 4:11 pm, Joel Halpern Direct <> wrote:
> I do not object to a bias towards the user.  I would probably even agree with an assertion that the IETF in its designs has tended to place insufficient weight on the interests of the end users.
> If that is your intent, you need to make significant adjustments in the wording.  Personally, I expect that would result in a better and more useful document.
> Yours,
> Joel
> On 2/6/2020 10:06 AM, Martin Thomson wrote:
>> On Thu, Feb 6, 2020, at 15:47, Joel Halpern Direct wrote:
>>> Yes, put simply, I think that declaring that the user's interest takes
>>> precedence over everything else is wrong.
>> This statement implies that the draft is somewhat more absolutist than it is.  This recognizes the equities of over stakeholders and expresses an intent to *bias* toward end-user interests over those of others.  That doesn't invalidate the tussle, it just places a thumb on the scale; something Dave Clark suggested in his recent plenary talk (apologies for the appeal to authority there).
>> I infer from this that you also object to that notion also.  If so, then maybe we will just have to agree to disagree.
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Mark Nottingham