Re: [arch-d] clusterpation, was Proposed IAB program: Evolvability, Deployability , & Maintainability.

John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com> Wed, 22 July 2020 14:18 UTC

Return-Path: <johnl@taugh.com>
X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 408F93A09F4 for <architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 22 Jul 2020 07:18:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.1
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=eQShBb+X; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=tKIxxOgs
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SqcV0ae3U2Ud for <architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 22 Jul 2020 07:18:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC59F3A09D1 for <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>; Wed, 22 Jul 2020 07:18:40 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (qmail 19990 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2020 14:18:38 -0000
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=4e14.5f184abe.k2007; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=EapTqN1xlHuh7cVD8BeJXE1Zs/PvJ9KCIT2qQF4Pgz0=; b=eQShBb+XOpx1BZll2eQX0W7408xf9ro7vFvyibppiwdSj2xaa5bjLg8k/I6sD6Bdu1VzIbDE3kpUyT7jNP+cMYm9GbTfHAXBzelja6r2h9dNYSDv+KyObAr1JMQ4YTxxbTN2RsWD3WdB5hUP4mZpc1dFVSrkKTaxhkZCZvyQxyGcP8wt5LSWJPLtVfeDjUnCjehIJkdxwMzpYu83egiom3OSqwtVXtBKHCkc5Ysg7rCI5EmZmzkM6bwOQd/vtKpd
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=4e14.5f184abe.k2007; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=EapTqN1xlHuh7cVD8BeJXE1Zs/PvJ9KCIT2qQF4Pgz0=; b=tKIxxOgsT/Ku86YMW6XvwDUdig2gZWlQRToWI8K233cseSUVA7Z/NOjgEkysPZPPNW658n+bP44jT4wQF5SmvjIbJh7W2OrMqvV+0waAYaVx1IBxQruevzTCqHnjQ2VKhClnCypfMuUVymnuLCOQ9iGI03D/U/C981wBpx/OF3+ug8Z9nR/6qxgui+F+ykPX6wGo8CfV0WjVtAyLGJIO79td+SzNyCiiTzOl3M1iMTnGUoVbW4J+WXdWVbjTiwKA
Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.3 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP6; 22 Jul 2020 14:18:38 -0000
Date: 22 Jul 2020 10:18:38 -0400
Message-ID: <e60ef33-3f73-4e39-c73e-ea107da2b587@taugh.com>
From: "John R Levine" <johnl@taugh.com>
To: "Brian E Carpenter" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, architecture-discuss@ietf.org
In-Reply-To: <0355ce38-cb6d-d4da-52e0-6176e529ca5f@gmail.com>
References: <20200722040028.728C81D5EB94@ary.qy> <0355ce38-cb6d-d4da-52e0-6176e529ca5f@gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/bYehrC2IlFsJtZ4ZYv4L8WoQA_0>
Subject: Re: [arch-d] clusterpation, was Proposed IAB program: Evolvability, Deployability , & Maintainability.
X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues <architecture-discuss.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/architecture-discuss>, <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/architecture-discuss/>
List-Post: <mailto:architecture-discuss@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss>, <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 14:18:43 -0000

On Wed, 22 Jul 2020, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> I think we all agree that we don't ever want to see another document
>> cluster as large or as long-lived as C238. ...
>>
>> But I would rather not attempt to invent processes to try and guess
>> how best to prevent hypothetical superclusters. ...

> That would be wise, but by the time anybody notices, it may be too late.

The RPC certainly knows how big the clusters are.  I've asked them to tell 
me if they notice any getting large.

> The question on the table, I think, is what factors lead to the formation
> of such a cluster, and what design issues should be considered to avoid it?

Nothing exotic, it's a bunch of drafts with interlinked cross-references. 
If I saw that happening, I'd try and do a topological sort and see if some 
of them can get un-linked, or at least if the linked ones can progress 
together.  The reason C238 gpt so big is that there were drafts in the 
queue that had references to other drafts that weren't done until two 
years later.

Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly