IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centralization vs Users

Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Fri, 05 May 2023 00:35 UTC

Return-Path: <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
X-Original-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20B16C15C523 for <architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 May 2023 17:35:15 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -7
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i3sNbqxiQ7fy for <architecture-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 4 May 2023 17:35:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR02-AM0-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am0eur02on2095.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.247.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5BEEC15152F for <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>; Thu, 4 May 2023 17:34:37 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=mJ07PAdz2eeuFrKPWfAPcvjGVhXnhb1xYOW12Rr4kE3IM3mNvWlP+7WtWuRK0160NKatthyUpx1P4Ry3CKPXFGb9KP80YLOHIFlKdH7n7Kvo4Lwj93W6g0b//QZj4L1oXC4IvSSaiDK6fbUWeshFR+CcJiDakLVLl3AvbaURg8lDUTEXp/rH0mSbka3hIi3ndsXqZ8Q85pvU7iipwhSp+C/tdA4trkvqWgph7erkA6Bo8wN+zPrZf3UDaywKIoG0WAHX7/PLHAlo74BJ73lcAAsrzI6bC1lq0lmQWkHy3QLfvyDNCV8dkaH4bibSy5c/bpzE0gCex70myBUGsKABhg==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=9Y1/RNPt2UtJSitZ7CnCYNSic2SGN06ijatKZl8lND8=; b=LT1u/gH2L17PmpqT43ONKePQ8lP/gMBtUojdolDo/UcHcG59o5NAnIrrKrafC2ECvkI/fn+z3f6kDj1STtA9W/L6/ajAVntvyKMzZazDQIunY2rsHDb50AtznNwirsbVsvz//Be+b+EwnQC3DPQo6t2yKAlbvgeSfGbTP7YAd+Ts4aazZu51wdGdntQBepYaq5ueAN7tYUIZZJ4Z5ogh25HGqes9aWyxHDNBlgu47u24g8zXTssr49NLD0677yZvLb4bv68gdTPVa5Fqjj64/7TefTT1juBQdfl85jruXnalKmDB51dQho3Gb9u1tDWsyoloYk1xmSgHvacHPv1UQg==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cs.tcd.ie; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; dkim=pass header.d=cs.tcd.ie; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=9Y1/RNPt2UtJSitZ7CnCYNSic2SGN06ijatKZl8lND8=; b=uk6ulXQDNZsXqszOmoO2LXbnugt4HbACNpfIYy27Szl7Eev7Zs7SWFqbwW1tDO0e7X8IVYcXgXyjcv6K7Oz+TkvyLO2QyAohS6dXL4Z06MLOOAsfdt6LTMtj5poMfgRtKstr+6Jg42JHlKCdkR6HR5RCVtxLx+jGiCjXyMGcEW39c1h/3iG4cmssM8SOD+D22gjtEKqxmklU/WyaKLsd+/1nEcZHVJV4ha/0C7HePrdP8ZAU6zpGDEzBnUidYEu17XS/KkjOnsOcWURgPJVa03cNCt8IzdC3n9dlU69BR/LjT5NE+mbtPA8Lrydj7yId4D6oISta7fvNILp89wKY5w==
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie;
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by AM9PR02MB6852.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:2d2::12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.6363.27; Fri, 5 May 2023 00:34:32 +0000
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a183:164f:5cd7:c4a2]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a183:164f:5cd7:c4a2%4]) with mapi id 15.20.6340.033; Fri, 5 May 2023 00:34:32 +0000
Message-ID: <f58120ca-28ed-1bed-a840-d1c255059b64@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 01:34:28 +0100
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.10.0
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, architecture-discuss@ietf.org
Cc: Internet Architecture Board <iab@iab.org>
References: <0f0da4833f81463b972558d972285595@boeing.com> <12045445-15D9-40F9-8306-4F3F98AB6BBE@apple.com> <911c3777-47e0-fad0-b0f9-7cbb81ba5a56@gmail.com>
Content-Language: en-US
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
In-Reply-To: <911c3777-47e0-fad0-b0f9-7cbb81ba5a56@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha256"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------ZOOXz28WaIJb0RFQfzUCOD30"
X-ClientProxiedBy: DB3PR06CA0020.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:8:1::33) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB7PR02MB5113:EE_|AM9PR02MB6852:EE_
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 664a594e-9fec-47d8-2ea5-08db4d007e35
X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True
X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP
X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: UMscfF8m3R4a2caouDTEZ165/b8u/UGYHrUHCpkrbyeeR4b+Y1y1tqHnPatCrKOw00DXg23rmVec3lfUV8XEbbRvYw83b1Wnd3BVruOCyLHFKvIYpARP052dyfnDOg54LTBvlGTf4AeFFrKRm1DQpEpZXtwUk7xeERYjoD2wP6xDa0RbfFudbJYBRslFNxq6vGt5zXjcckq6jCnxrdzzAGwXpHVlimdwqaz0mbwTaCJL6aFn6K8x37D2MFnsN0WiFwY0aMv0yCCEDDE0DA7kyd21NsZOErITRWW8VoT9iO8z/U6socnTtJ/x2+xaTj5taSjWk1Wy6NNPAxdtKzOLvVcsEd/V82aR/Jv+Gk/9Dfi2mxkS9VQ/BplHNrRwcMBWf4zyEsBNq/O6UQg8d8pM+TSO8GVgFUnHmEjDGmxaDf67/kS55FbjEuhmtveR4hVwT+kJqcU4kwEJcXsE8DJtxsetxgxF09MsBvEasNah2VosCg1K8E6oCkVZz+smIJ277SMjh9TdbcIvXK5XN/swWEDGMTYrsaVS9Yd1Pq/DtCU8fTZMLacLEYfwYpOCRuFjzgYUumB0LnTzaKPwLN98B0ZDSduvAk/+CEVJnSxqMBtVkRp7UvRIjeCcFA6t+MRSak/dCfPmEJ/miraBhS530KCfeIXhupDJZYIhe1MUpGV0qZKOgEbTAq564qeOusfbr8nO9jJ7/B0331hoa/7oQRQNXWS091dbyLMmV+aeAlU=
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(13230028)(4636009)(346002)(136003)(376002)(366004)(396003)(39860400002)(451199021)(31696002)(86362001)(36756003)(786003)(316002)(4326008)(66476007)(66556008)(33964004)(478600001)(6486002)(66946007)(6666004)(41300700001)(41320700001)(5660300002)(235185007)(8936002)(8676002)(2906002)(44832011)(21480400003)(186003)(38100700002)(6506007)(53546011)(6512007)(66574015)(83380400001)(2616005)(66899021)(31686004)(26730200005)(19860200003)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102;
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: 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
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 664a594e-9fec-47d8-2ea5-08db4d007e35
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 May 2023 00:34:31.9646 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: 1HUyJfRmHFs4HJhce1tfy1UD1h+OhulMbky86PyrUUfS4a2X9XI5rbf+fjFvqKEC
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM9PR02MB6852
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/architecture-discuss/jBqENkn8sf0-uGw7NaT6pFUPk_I>
Subject: Re: [arch-d] Splintering (fragmentation) vs Centralization vs Users
X-BeenThere: architecture-discuss@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues <architecture-discuss.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/architecture-discuss>, <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/architecture-discuss/>
List-Post: <mailto:architecture-discuss@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss>, <mailto:architecture-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 May 2023 00:35:15 -0000

Hiya,

On 04/05/2023 22:39, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

> I mentioned that some security technology that we develop could be
> "dual use", e.g. useful both for privacy and useful for walled gardens.
> So perhaps we should be careful when evaluating new ideas that they
> cannot be used for undesirable purposes as well as the intended purpose.

My own take, that may be too driven by the cute wording
I admit, is that, for any protocol change, we should
consider both the proposed use-cases, and the potential
abuse-cases.

I'd be happy to see a BCP that called for that to be a
normal part of IETF processes.

Cheers,
S.

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email