Re: [arch-d] New Version Notification for draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt

Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com> Sat, 25 January 2020 10:13 UTC

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Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 11:13:30 +0100 (CET)
From: Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>
To: S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com>, architecture-discuss@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [arch-d] New Version Notification for draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt
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> Il 25/01/2020 00:58 S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com> ha scritto:
> 
> >As explained elsewhere in the document, we don't rely on end users 
> >coming to present their case in person, as it were.
> 
> On whom does the IAB rely on to present the case?
> 
> Is it the governments which represent the users as that is usually 
> what governments do?  There is text in the draft which states that it 
> is not automatic.  Is it the advocacy groups which participate in the 
> Internet Engineering Task Force?  Is it the engineer who participates 
> in the Internet Engineering Task Force?

I also do not get the logic of this part of the text. If - as you said - even governmental representatives cannot represent users and advocate their views because everyone in the IETF participates as an individual, then how come that "civil society organisations specialise[d] in technology and Internet policy", or "industry associations, user groups, or a set of individuals", as mentioned in 4.1, should instead be able to do so?

If people really participate in the IETF as individuals, as a minimum only end-users are able to advocate for themselves, and as a maximum there is no such thing as "end-user views", opposed to the views of other stakeholders, because there are no stakeholders and we are all equal human beings (which IMHO is a super-naive view).

Otherwise, if there are conflicting stakeholder needs and the IETF needs to prioritize one stakeholder over others, then participants are not individuals but part and representatives of a stakeholder group, and then we have to enter into the definition and organization of stakeholders and of their representativeness (which is what all other I* organizations have been doing for the last 20 years).

Just pick one - we can't have both at the same time.

-- 
 
Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com 
Office @ Via Treviso 12, 10144 Torino, Italy