Re: [arch-d] New Version Notification for draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt

Mark Nottingham <> Sat, 01 February 2020 14:51 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BA4C120830 for <>; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 06:51:38 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.699
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.b=fLSqUUmg; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.b=s2XkvFun
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hWzDTvVWBdkv for <>; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 06:51:35 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ( []) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A308112082F for <>; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 06:51:35 -0800 (PST)
Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal []) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E28B2220A5; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 09:51:34 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 01 Feb 2020 09:51:34 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=Y e+4vWVqIk4HQBX01rllonC/Ws8kIpD+Ib9M5dkodQU=; b=fLSqUUmg8EziECsg8 o5ucgGcy2BmViTHfKp7LDM/pw0pmCvGXSy1Eb7BZ/m5/K5Exy2Wje1PktyQT1DY1 Nuxr4pvsuVPRTz651R9ncIof9LmTGtj1vWthw38+yh4eHzoEgOdliktrgRH32DiB ZjBXD5dTarM+n8PAEB2lex/b3IjRD4olOHiAb4f8+jaxRXrE+7qP+nPOlNWwUMjO dTYA7xaCG1S1o8tKt4lUx3lywpMuapULHBPiKfOhWVkWNFDqnD9vUfghN1ACRodP 7HQacQ7uzMxs8aTAyPMD2jOg4Ib2ti5Ukd29pDKe+iQZKSTUvkq8fvzXxT5rGWdx UdsFQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=Ye+4vWVqIk4HQBX01rllonC/Ws8kIpD+Ib9M5dkod QU=; b=s2XkvFunC2vbuI40+y+MQpqLWL2ds1L7aORAmoJs03grhqJC0mGjCdi/q 9CMcsn66xu6FQ3Bf9HOdapNwckvVUD3CzeGv+1U/tO9GggrDieaT+oy1fTS+pJts o/VY43ZvZUNWthAj7j8CKVYSCYOhzVrj+/vyXXJSAW/7Emhb+qF4mjmBNW67QfmH SIZCuA6gNHUXnfbfj7UtGZE+x2AXTXNh1cXxbXBh6nUb/m9XJXNw0Cu4G8hyW/SG Xr+cwfj/XcUhzJ5NrQn/VWFwRQNLthlJCgNgAH8tJHCB/wzJHHt5S55JJDkxjqD4 kYwNMDrgIkPd5RG5+sVEAiEX09jaQ==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:dZA1XsaQtN1koBitGiLMPb_jSYn6Gs-6UwD1CqqC7kvnJhWbXUHjVg>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrgedvgdeikecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmh dthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhkucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhn ohhtrdhnvghtqeenucffohhmrghinhepmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecukfhppeegiedrudegtd drhedurddvgeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhr ohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:dZA1Xtwenoi_q3PwomHDyKRZEWNC553fKeBILyM760TKVis2q_r6XA> <xmx:dZA1XrrLgr4r5En-ju_tJDm_DAFXMmy4q1RVdXuFuili7CbPIiFlQA> <xmx:dZA1XpwA1I6OZCKvkqo3joksAo77f_cro0o62e4BrLIvMcmNXwfW8A> <xmx:dpA1Xh_WP6Zg0Pn0oecNybD2NShjaevbvxukxiKIDiTB6PZGs7Vibg>
Received: from [] (unknown []) by (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 46A673280062; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 09:51:33 -0500 (EST)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.\))
From: Mark Nottingham <>
In-Reply-To: <>
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2020 15:51:31 +0100
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <>
References: <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>
To: S Moonesamy <>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.
Archived-At: <>
Subject: Re: [arch-d] New Version Notification for draft-iab-for-the-users-01.txt
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: open discussion forum for long/wide-range architectural issues <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 14:51:38 -0000

> On 25 Jan 2020, at 12:58 am, S Moonesamy <> wrote:
> Hi Mark,
> At 09:36 PM 23-01-2020, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>> I'm not sure what you mean. I don't see a literal question mark near the reference in the published text document.
> Sorry for not being clear.  There isn't a literal question mark.  I'll try and explain the point.  There is the following text: "We embrace technical concepts such as decentralized control ..."  The reality is that the "control" has moved in the opposite direction, i.e. there is centralization.   The "social good" is being challenged because of significant cases of misuse.  The misuse range from the impact on the individual to impact at country level.

Ah. I agree that centralisation is a concern, and the IAB has been talking about it quite a bit recently.

>> As explained elsewhere in the document, we don't rely on end users coming to present their case in person, as it were.
> On whom does the IAB rely on to present the case?
> Is it the governments which represent the users as that is usually what governments do?  There is text in the draft which states that it is not automatic.  Is it the advocacy groups which participate in the Internet Engineering Task Force?  Is it the engineer who participates in the Internet Engineering Task Force?

I'm a bit confused by your line of questioning here. Section 4.1 explains why we need to account for users' needs, but shouldn't expect users to just show up and represent them. So, it suggests some ways we might improve over the status quo. 

No one person or organisation represents' users needs; it's much more complex than that.


Mark Nottingham