Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804?

Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Tue, 13 October 2020 19:14 UTC

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To: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
Cc: Andrew Campling <andrew.campling@419.consulting>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, architecture-discuss@ietf.org
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From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 20:14:17 +0100
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Subject: Re: [arch-d] Time to reboot RFC1984 and RFC2804?
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Hiya,

On 13/10/2020 19:00, John C Klensin wrote:
>  So, when I
> first read the subject line and first part of Brian's note, I
> interpreted "revisit" as "maybe it is time to move away from the
> absolutes of "doing that is bad and won't work" or "that is an
> evil and will hurt the Internet" and to start looking more at
> why others might think that a particular approach might be worth
> it despite the disadvantages,  We should, IMO, be willing to
> look at those issues to see if we can find alternatives or
> middle grounds.

I don't believe our current BCPs (nor 2404) are at all
absolutist. Describing them that way seems to me fairly
inaccurate.

That is a form of argument that one sees repeated though:
"I disagree with what you write/say. What you say is
absolutist. I'm reasonable and prefer a middle ground.
Therefore you are wrong to not compromise regardless of
any particular set of facts (even if what I want is
not possible;-)" I'd find it hard to be convinced that
compromise or some middle-ground was desirable if we
have engineering cast as one "extreme" and a desire for
magic as the other.

But maybe we're better off not re-litigating rfc1984
though...

FWIW, I thought Brian's mail might turn into considerations
as to the risks of client-side near-monopolies - the fact
we live with those creates an opportunity to mandate that
certain software or functionality (e.g. a snooping process,
reporting to someone someone else has chosen) can easily
become a requirement for nearly all devices in a particular
region. I'm not sure how much of that is within the IETF's
purview though, but that is one of the angles of attack
that those who'd like to snoop more seem to be taking,
rather than failing yet again to square that circle. I do
agree though that the fact that some of those widely
deployed client platforms are intimately involved in
surveilling for advertising purposes makes it harder to
argue that it's somehow bad for governments to want or
insist on similar things.

Cheers,
S.