Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-core-problem-details-05
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Fri, 24 June 2022 15:52 UTC
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Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2022 11:51:54 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
cc: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>, "\"Martin J. Dürst\"" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>, Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion <art@ietf.org>, Core WG mailing list <core@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-core-problem-details.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-core-problem-details-05
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--On Friday, June 24, 2022 17:14 +0200 Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote: > On 2022-06-24, at 16:53, John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> > wrote: >> >> FWIW, strongly agree on both points, especially the first. > > And, as I have said, I strongly disagree that there is any > problem here at all — we already have the processes to > handle upgrades. Carsten, Unfortunately, we also have many years of painful experiences trying to sort out the details of the meaning of one document replacing ("obsoleting") or even updating another and what that means for references that still point to the original one. If you are referring to the normal IETF/RFC "processes to handle upgrades", that experience, reinforced by some recent discussions about kinds of updates, is evidence that those processes don't work very well. If you had some processes specific to CORE or CBOR in mind, I couldn't find a normative reference in the document. Separating the two sets of definitions just makes any evolution much more clear and easy to handle without having to deal with those problems. You could, of course, turn that around and say "well, we have been dealing with that sort of mess for years, what difference will one more case make?", but I, at least, don't find that very persuasive. Editorially, putting essential normative definitions into an Appendix aggravates the problem: the normal definition of "Appendix" is about supplemental, rather than normative-essential, material. In that context, replacing the body of a document without bothering to copy the appendices over or discuss them makes perfect sense, but it is exactly what you presumably would not want here. It does look from this draft as if the same thing was done in RFC 8610 (a quick glance at the latter seems to confirm that). My reaction to that is, more or less, "shame on the RFC Editor process but let's not use it as a precedent". You probably disagree. Not speaking for Harald but, if you want to (and can) persuade the IESG that there is rough consensus in the WG and the community for leaving the two together, I think the document would be strengthened by a brief paragraph about possible updates, pointing out that Tag 38 and the rest of the spec might be altered separately and urging that any updating documents be clear about what is being altered (and what is not) and that any replacement document either copy everything or split things up. That might include an explicit warning against leaving parts of this spec as normative while replacing other parts. If you are correct that it is not likely to be a problem, than such a paragraph is cheap. If you are not, then it would be quite helpful in flagging the issue so that future documents do not create the ambiguous mess that I (and I presume Harald) fear. john
- [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-core-… Harald Alvestrand via Datatracker
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Ira McDonald
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Ira McDonald
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Ira McDonald
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … John C Klensin
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Ira McDonald
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … John C Klensin
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … John C Klensin
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … John C Klensin
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … John C Klensin
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Carsten Bormann
- [art] Thank you! -- Re: [core] Artart last call r… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] Thank you! -- Re: [core] Artart last ca… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Martin J. Dürst
- [art] Language tags and YANG Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [core] Artart last call review of draft… Thomas Fossati
- [art] Call for comments on draft-ietf-core-proble… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] Call for comments on draft-ietf-core-pr… Marco Tiloca
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] [core] Artart last call rev… John C Klensin
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] [core] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] [core] Artart last call rev… John C Klensin
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [core] Call for comments on draft-ietf-… Ari Keränen
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] [core] Artart last call rev… Thomas Fossati
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] [core] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] Language tags and YANG tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Language tags and YANG Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft-… tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft-… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] [core] Artart last call rev… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft-… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] [core] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft-… Randy Presuhn
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Call for comments on… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft-… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Language tags and YANG Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft-… tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Language tags and YANG tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft-… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Thomas Fossati
- Re: [art] [core] Call for comments on draft-ietf-… Hubert Przybysz
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Martin J. Dürst
- [art] Obsoletes Re: [core] [Last-Call] Artart las… tom petch
- Re: [art] Call for comments on draft-ietf-core-pr… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] Obsoletes Re: [core] [Last-Call] Artart… John C Klensin
- Re: [art] Obsoletes Re: [core] [Last-Call] Artart… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: [art] Obsoletes Re: [core] [Last-Call] Artart… tom petch
- Re: [art] Obsoletes Re: [core] [Last-Call] Artart… Carsten Bormann