Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-core-problem-details-05
John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Mon, 27 June 2022 14:49 UTC
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Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2022 10:49:22 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
cc: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion <art@ietf.org>, Core WG mailing list <core@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-core-problem-details.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-core-problem-details-05
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--On Monday, 27 June, 2022 10:56 +0200 Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote: >... >>>> Next, let me make sure that I get this right: This is a >>>> Boolean value, but it can in effect have four different >>>> states, yes? That would be: - True (rtl) >>>> - False (ltr) >>>> - null (no indication about direction, but overriding any >>>> context) - absent (no indication about direction, but >>>> context may apply) If that's true, then it might be good to >>>> put that into a more structured from (something like the >>>> above list). >>> Thanks, see below. (A value that is absent is not a value; >>> its representation by a null value may be needed to >>> ~~override~~ reset any context available.) >> In one of the patches, you collapsed my four-point list to >> three points. > This is really a ternary setting, with `ltr` (represented by > false), `rtl` (by true), and `auto` (by null). The fourth case > is that the setting is not given, i.e., absent. The default > value for that case is taken from the context (not specified > where that would come from) that overrides (sorry) this > default. If there is no context, the default default is `auto`. If you, as document author, don't know or cannot specify where the determining context comes from, isn't omitting the keyword and value equivalent to "do whatever you feel like, possibly considering whatever else you can figure out"? If that is actually the case, why not just say that? Or, as one alternative, why not make it explicit that the keyword and value (probably even in the "null"/auto case are optional only if the language and script are strictly LTR? Backing up a bit, you (and presumably the WG) concluded, even before you sought external advice, that specifying direction is important. Then you added these two options ("null" and omitted entirely) to allow not specifying it. That feels to me like we are going around in circles or, at least, shifting responsibility for making the decisions to people who may be much less expert on the subject than the WG (much less the WG with help from IETF Last Call). So, suggestions (pick one): (1) Get rid of the two "make up your own mind" options and require the value (2) Spell out the circumstances under which the value MUST be specified, indicate that it MAY be present in any of the other cases, and then move on. (3) If you can describe coherently what it would mean in a way that would cover all cases, make the third value "inherited" and make omitting the parameter exactly equivalent to it. "Inherited" is the only way in which "from context" appears to me to make sense. If I am missing other cases that would dictate context, that makes spelling out when the third and forth options are useful even more important. Free advice: Don't do (3) unless you think it is absolutely necessary: the odds of getting further bogged down are very high. best, john
- [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-core-… Harald Alvestrand via Datatracker
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Ira McDonald
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Ira McDonald
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Ira McDonald
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … John C Klensin
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Ira McDonald
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … John C Klensin
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … John C Klensin
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … John C Klensin
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … John C Klensin
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Carsten Bormann
- [art] Thank you! -- Re: [core] Artart last call r… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] Thank you! -- Re: [core] Artart last ca… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] Artart last call review of draft-ietf-c… Martin J. Dürst
- [art] Language tags and YANG Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [core] Artart last call review of draft… Thomas Fossati
- [art] Call for comments on draft-ietf-core-proble… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] Call for comments on draft-ietf-core-pr… Marco Tiloca
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] [core] Artart last call rev… John C Klensin
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] [core] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] [core] Artart last call rev… John C Klensin
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Artart last call review of … Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [core] Call for comments on draft-ietf-… Ari Keränen
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] [core] Artart last call rev… Thomas Fossati
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] [core] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] Language tags and YANG tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Language tags and YANG Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft-… tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft-… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] [core] Artart last call rev… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft-… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] [core] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft-… Randy Presuhn
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Call for comments on… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft-… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Language tags and YANG Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft-… tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Language tags and YANG tom petch
- Re: [art] [Last-Call] Call for comments on draft-… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Thomas Fossati
- Re: [art] [core] Call for comments on draft-ietf-… Hubert Przybysz
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [art] [core] [Last-Call] Artart last call rev… Martin J. Dürst
- [art] Obsoletes Re: [core] [Last-Call] Artart las… tom petch
- Re: [art] Call for comments on draft-ietf-core-pr… Francesca Palombini
- Re: [art] Obsoletes Re: [core] [Last-Call] Artart… John C Klensin
- Re: [art] Obsoletes Re: [core] [Last-Call] Artart… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: [art] Obsoletes Re: [core] [Last-Call] Artart… tom petch
- Re: [art] Obsoletes Re: [core] [Last-Call] Artart… Carsten Bormann