[art] Re: draft-bray-unichars-09 review

Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> Tue, 08 October 2024 19:38 UTC

Return-Path: <cabo@tzi.org>
X-Original-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: art@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61D67C15199A; Tue, 8 Oct 2024 12:38:46 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.905
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.905 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ghYay7egntMm; Tue, 8 Oct 2024 12:38:42 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C1B2C1840D8; Tue, 8 Oct 2024 12:38:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (p5dc5d074.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.197.208.116]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4XNRCK14RMzDCbd; Tue, 8 Oct 2024 21:38:37 +0200 (CEST)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3776.700.51.11.1\))
From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAHBU6itokOYJb6ZWUfvct7O7AqDsULvYUrtBqm25Wy-7TxOM4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2024 21:38:26 +0200
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <03726C83-0F8A-427B-B033-95D5EEC3D977@tzi.org>
References: <CAN8C-_JkHcer1MbvwSrtFxFu_38JRy-_JstYOmAMdOVCdCe-0g@mail.gmail.com> <CAHBU6itokOYJb6ZWUfvct7O7AqDsULvYUrtBqm25Wy-7TxOM4Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3776.700.51.11.1)
Message-ID-Hash: GOM72R4Q4HKEO36WQTNRLQKBUD7FMGBX
X-Message-ID-Hash: GOM72R4Q4HKEO36WQTNRLQKBUD7FMGBX
X-MailFrom: cabo@tzi.org
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-art.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
CC: Orie Steele <orie@transmute.industries>, draft-bray-unichars@ietf.org, draft-bray-unichars.shepherd@ietf.org, art@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc5
Precedence: list
Subject: [art] Re: draft-bray-unichars-09 review
List-Id: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion <art.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/art/vFeHLEltgLjq8dnnyGxGohPu5JM>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/art>
List-Help: <mailto:art-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:art-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:art@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:art-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:art-leave@ietf.org>

On 8. Oct 2024, at 18:51, Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> wrote:
> 
>  Our vision of how this would be used successfully was along the lines of: 
> 
>     • WG takes up a draft. That draft says "the value of this field is Unicode text." Maybe it even says "…encoded in UTF-8.” 
>     • Someone (co-chair, WG member, AD, last-call commenter) says “Which Unicode characters? Go look at [Unichars].” 
>     • The draft editor says “Oh, OK” and specifies one of the subsets from [Unichars] or maybe [PRECIS].

This document would be nice to have (*).

Unfortunately, draft-bray-unichars isn’t that document.

What it tells you is what people did in that situation some 30 years ago.
Which is nice to know, but would benefit from an analysis how the world has moved on since.
(The scenario above even points out the difference: “the value *of this field* …”.)

I continue to believe the net value of the current document in the above scenario is negative.

Grüße, Carsten

(*) As I was seeing other protocol designers struggle with this, I started writing such a document before the pandemic slowed us down.
The most recent version is at [1].

[1]: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-bormann-dispatch-modern-network-unicode-05.html