Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF
Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> Mon, 10 December 2012 14:56 UTC
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Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 09:56:27 -0500
From: Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org>
To: Anti-Spam Research Group - IRTF <asrg@irtf.org>
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References: <20121206212116.10328.qmail@joyce.lan> <50C1A95A.5000001@pscs.co.uk> <50C4A7F8.3010201@dcrocker.net> <CAFdugamTbTirVV2zXKOmc9oTaCS+QiTemhT=jvYJnHYscHQK7g@mail.gmail.com> <0D79787962F6AE4B84B2CC41FC957D0B20ACE6D0@ABN-EXCH1A.green.sophos> <20121209213307.D90C12429B@panix5.panix.com> <CAFduganBR_E-ui-3Xbic6F7qSmg1-Q+ideXLvb+1isLz8OF0Nw@mail.gmail.com> <0D79787962F6AE4B84B2CC41FC957D0B20ACFFE1@ABN-EXCH1A.green.sophos> <50C5A9A0.105@pscs.co.uk> <0D79787962F6AE4B84B2CC41FC957D0B20AD01B2@ABN-EXCH1A.green.sophos>
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Subject: Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF
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On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 01:47:18PM +0000, Martijn Grooten wrote: > While not all bad things that can happen as a consequence of taking a > fake email to be real involve clicking links, I agree it would be very > helpful if we could somehow determine the legitimacy of links at the > MTA/MUA level. > > However, we can't. [...] Precisely. Moreover, there is no way to know that a link L, which is good/legitimate/wholesome/nutritious at the moment at which some piece of software examines it, will still be in that state at some later moment when a user accesses it. We see examples all day, every day, of sites that have been hijacked by attackers and now host malicious content where formerly there was something innocuous. I think this best approach to solving this problem is not to solve this problem. Hmmm...perhaps "best" is a poor choice of words, as what I'm about to suggest is, in practice, mediocre; but I'll stick with "best" because I think it's the best available. To wit: users should never follow "important" links in email. They should (for example) bookmark their bank's web site, and *always* use the bookmark. [1] Senders should never send "important" links in email, e.g., banks should not include URLs in their messages. I'll pause now while you all enjoy a hearty laugh at the prospect of both of these things happening. But the serious side is that the problem, as Martijn observes, is unsolvable with software, so if we want to truly deal with it, then (shudder) we need to deal with human behavior. And I really do know how hard that is: I often quote Marcus Ranum's Six Dumbest Ideas in Computer Security, and "Educating Users" is #5. But I don't think we have any better alternatives. Do we? ---rsk [1] Of course if the bookmark is altered by an attacker, they're already 0wned, so this is no worse.
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF John Levine
- [Asrg] misconception in SPF Christian Grunfeld
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Christian Grunfeld
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Derek Diget
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Martijn Grooten
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF John Levine
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Christian Grunfeld
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Paul Smith
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Christian Grunfeld
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Paul Smith
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF darxus
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF SM
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF darxus
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Daniel Feenberg
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Paul Smith
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF John Levine
- Re: [Asrg] various anti-spam techniques, was misc… John Levine
- Re: [Asrg] various anti-spam techniques, was misc… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF SM
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Bill Cole
- Re: [Asrg] various anti-spam techniques, was misc… Christian Grunfeld
- Re: [Asrg] various anti-spam techniques, was misc… John Levine
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF John Levine
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Bill Cole
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Paul Smith
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF SM
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Dave Crocker
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Christian Grunfeld
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Dave Crocker
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Martijn Grooten
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF John Levine
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Seth
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Christian Grunfeld
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF John Levine
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF John Levine
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Franck Martin
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Martijn Grooten
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Paul Smith
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Martijn Grooten
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Dotzero
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Rich Kulawiec
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Christian Grunfeld
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Dave Crocker
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Chris Lewis
- [Asrg] whitelisting links (was Re: misconception … Dave Crocker
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Martijn Grooten
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Dave Crocker
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Christian Grunfeld
- Re: [Asrg] whitelisting links (was Re: misconcept… Paul Smith
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Martijn Grooten
- Re: [Asrg] whitelisting links (was Re: misconcept… Martijn Grooten
- Re: [Asrg] whitelisting links (was Re: misconcept… darxus
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Eggert, Lars
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Christian Grunfeld
- Re: [Asrg] whitelisting links (was Re: misconcept… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Asrg] whitelisting links (was Re: misconcept… Martijn Grooten
- Re: [Asrg] whitelisting links (was Re: misconcept… Michael Thomas
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF John Levine
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Chris Lewis
- Re: [Asrg] whitelisting links (was Re: misconcept… Paul Smith
- Re: [Asrg] whitelisting links (was Re: misconcept… Steve Atkins
- Re: [Asrg] whitelisting links (was Re: misconcept… Martijn Grooten
- Re: [Asrg] whitelisting links (was Re: misconcept… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Asrg] whitelisting links (was Re: misconcept… Martijn Grooten
- Re: [Asrg] whitelisting links (was Re: misconcept… Christian Grunfeld
- Re: [Asrg] whitelisting links (was Re: misconcept… Dave Crocker
- Re: [Asrg] whitelisting links (was Re: misconcept… Chris Lewis
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Asrg] whitelisting links (was Re: misconcept… Paul Smith
- Re: [Asrg] whitelisting links (was Re: misconcept… Martijn Grooten
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Martijn Grooten
- Re: [Asrg] whitelisting links (was Re: misconcept… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: [Asrg] whitelisting links (was Re: misconcept… Michael Thomas
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF John Levine
- Re: [Asrg] whitelisting links (was Re: misconcept… John Johnson
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF John Johnson
- Re: [Asrg] whitelisting links (was Re: misconcept… Michael Thomas
- Re: [Asrg] whitelisting links (was Re: misconcept… John Levine
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Dotzero
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF John Levine
- Re: [Asrg] misconception in SPF Laura Atkins
- Re: [Asrg] DMARC, was misconception in SPF John Levine