Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication Mechanisms: aCritical Review
Douglas Otis <dotis@mail-abuse.org> Fri, 29 May 2009 23:22 UTC
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From: Douglas Otis <dotis@mail-abuse.org>
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Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 16:24:21 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication Mechanisms: aCritical Review
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On May 29, 2009, at 12:05 PM, Florian Weimer wrote: > * Douglas Otis: > >>> Just using TCP would prevent most of the DNS poisoning attacks >>> that Amir's paper reports. >> >> TCP is prone to DDoS attack. > > Only when implemented naively. If the client does not split the > query into two packets or artificially lowers the window size, you > can answer it without creating any state. Any modification to TCP that bypasses SYN/ACK handshakes for full- duplex data is not TCP. Indeed, DNS could operate accepting any TCP packet "as-if" SYN-ACK handshakes occurred. The stack could initially ignore sequence numbers, and assume all DNS messages are fully contained within the packet, and that all messages are always frame aligned. This approach omits source verification, and therefore is unable to mitigate spoofed reflected attacks. The same effect could be achieved using EDNS0 options that extend both transaction-ids as well as packet size. Of course, discovering whether a DNS server violates TCP protocols or implements a new EDNS0 option may also expend an additional exchange. This initial exchange would determine whether the DNS server uses a facocta TCP or chokes on a new EDNS0 option. Of course, the originating DNS client will need to retain this result to establish global state to avoid increased resource consumption. The initial exchange would also determine whether MTU limitations or packet inspection on the path may also cause non-compliant packets to be dropped. Any attack hammering the client may therefore induce the downgrading to less secure modes. > The argument against TCP is not the protocol. It's just that you > have to upgrade both authoritative servers and resolvers to make it > work well. Huh? Why suggest radical changes to the TCP protocol, and then, in the same breath, say the problem is not the protocol? Defending against DDoS attack was never a major consideration during early TCP or UDP development. Bot-nets weren't the problem they are today. Bastardizing TCP, rather than adopting properly designed protocols, is unlikely to provide a solutions, but instead likely to create new vulnerabilities. -Doug
- [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication Mech… Amir Herzberg
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Dave CROCKER
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Steve Atkins
- [Asrg] 答复: DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Sean Shen
- Re: [Asrg] ´ð¸´: DNS-based Email Sender Authentic… grenville armitage
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Jose-Marcio Martins da Cruz
- Re: [Asrg] ´ð¸´: DNS-based Email Sender Authentic… Amir Herzberg
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Douglas Otis
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … der Mouse
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … John Leslie
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Douglas Otis
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Amir Herzberg
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Douglas Otis
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Jose-Marcio Martins da Cruz
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Chris Lewis
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Amir Herzberg
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Jose-Marcio Martins da Cruz
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Dave CROCKER
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Douglas Otis
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Chris Lewis
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Douglas Otis
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … der Mouse
- Re: [Asrg] rDNS Douglas Otis
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Chris Lewis
- Re: [Asrg] rDNS der Mouse
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … John Levine
- [Asrg] DNS over SCTP (was: Re: DNS-based Email Se… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Asrg] rDNS Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP (was: Re: DNS-based Emai… SM
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Douglas Otis
- Re: [Asrg] rDNS der Mouse
- Re: [Asrg] rDNS Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Asrg] rDNS der Mouse
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Florian Weimer
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Douglas Otis
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Douglas Otis
- Re: [Asrg] rDNS discrimination Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP (was: Re: DNS-based Emai… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP David Conrad
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Paul Wouters
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Thierry Moreau
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP David Conrad
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Michael Tüxen
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Paul Wouters
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP (was: Re: DNS-based Emai… Francis Dupont
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Francis Dupont
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP David Conrad
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Francis Dupont
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Bill Manning
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Florian Weimer
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Francis Dupont
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Christian Huitema
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Douglas Otis
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Amir Herzberg
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Paul Wouters
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Richard Barnes
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end (more … Richard Barnes
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end David Wilson
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end (more … Thierry Moreau
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end (more … Thierry Moreau
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end (more … Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end (more … Mark Andrews
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end (more … Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Christian Huitema
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Doug Otis
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Paul Wouters
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Doug Otis
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end David Wilson
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end David Wilson
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- [Asrg] RISC is end to end (was Re: DNSSEC is NOT … Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end David Wilson
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end David Wilson
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end der Mouse
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Alessandro Vesely