Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end
Richard Barnes <rbarnes@bbn.com> Tue, 02 June 2009 14:15 UTC
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Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:14:11 -0400
From: Richard Barnes <rbarnes@bbn.com>
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To: Masataka Ohta <mohta@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp>
References: <200905302032.n4UKVxaZ048822@givry.fdupont.fr> <4A21C0CB.8070409@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> <8EFB68EAE061884A8517F2A755E8B60A1EF83F8661@NA-EXMSG-W601.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <4A252B54.6020508@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp>
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Cc: Christian Huitema <huitema@windows.microsoft.com>, Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@fdupont.fr>, Anti-Spam Research Group - IRTF <asrg@irtf.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end
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This debate has nothing to do with the security properties of DNSSEC. A basic assumption of the DNS is that what the authoritative server for zone says is, well, authoritative. The structure of DNS itself entitles JPNIC to point ac.jp wherever they want; by using a name within the .jp domain, you are agreeing to act within JPNIC's domain of control. JPNIC could set up an authoritative server for hpcl.titech.ac.jp completely independently of you, regardless of DNSSEC, and from the perspective of the DNS, that would be the right answer. All DNSSEC does is make the assertions made in the DNS reliable -- it does nothing to change the locus of control. On the other hand, you can certainly use the DNSSEC protocol elements to do peer-to-peer security, just like you can use private DNS servers, and just like you can use TLS without trust anchors (i.e., with self-signed certs). Just hand out the public half of your ZSK to people you want to be able to verify names within your zone. --Richard Masataka Ohta wrote: > Christian Huitema wrote: > >>> That is, security of DNSSEC involves third parties and is not end >>> to end. > >> That is indeed correct. An attacker can build a fake hierarchy of >> "secure DNS" assertions and try to get it accepted. The attack can >> succeed with the complicity of one of the authorities in the >> hierarchy. It is a classic "attack by a trusted party". > > Yes, the hierarchy has hops. > > For my domain: "necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp", hierarechy of zones > have hops of ".", "jp", "ac.jp", "titech.ac.jp" and > "hpcl.titech.ac.jp". The authority hops are IANA, JPNIC, my > university, and my lab. Though you may have direct relationship > with IANA, JPNIC is the third party for both you and me. > >> If an intermediate authority has >> been compromised, it can just as well insert a fake NS record -- >> that's not harder than a fake record signature. > > So, with a compromised hop of an intermediate authority, record > signature on the faked next hop key can be generated. > > Then, with a private key corresponding to the faked next hop key, > record signature on the faked second next hop key can be generated. > > Then, with a private key corresponding to the faked second next > hop key, record signature on the faked third next hop key can be > generated. > > Yes, security of DNSSEC is totally hop by hop. > > Masataka Ohta > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf mailing list > Ietf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf >
- [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication Mech… Amir Herzberg
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Dave CROCKER
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Steve Atkins
- [Asrg] 答复: DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Sean Shen
- Re: [Asrg] ´ð¸´: DNS-based Email Sender Authentic… grenville armitage
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Jose-Marcio Martins da Cruz
- Re: [Asrg] ´ð¸´: DNS-based Email Sender Authentic… Amir Herzberg
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Douglas Otis
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … der Mouse
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … John Leslie
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Douglas Otis
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Amir Herzberg
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Douglas Otis
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Jose-Marcio Martins da Cruz
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Chris Lewis
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Amir Herzberg
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Jose-Marcio Martins da Cruz
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Dave CROCKER
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Douglas Otis
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Chris Lewis
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Douglas Otis
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … der Mouse
- Re: [Asrg] rDNS Douglas Otis
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Chris Lewis
- Re: [Asrg] rDNS der Mouse
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … John Levine
- [Asrg] DNS over SCTP (was: Re: DNS-based Email Se… Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Asrg] rDNS Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP (was: Re: DNS-based Emai… SM
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Douglas Otis
- Re: [Asrg] rDNS der Mouse
- Re: [Asrg] rDNS Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Asrg] rDNS der Mouse
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Florian Weimer
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Douglas Otis
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Douglas Otis
- Re: [Asrg] rDNS discrimination Alessandro Vesely
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP (was: Re: DNS-based Emai… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP David Conrad
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Paul Wouters
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Thierry Moreau
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP David Conrad
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Michael Tüxen
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Paul Wouters
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP (was: Re: DNS-based Emai… Francis Dupont
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Francis Dupont
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP David Conrad
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Francis Dupont
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Bill Manning
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Florian Weimer
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Francis Dupont
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Christian Huitema
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Douglas Otis
- Re: [Asrg] DNS-based Email Sender Authentication … Amir Herzberg
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Paul Wouters
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Richard Barnes
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end (more … Richard Barnes
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end David Wilson
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end (more … Thierry Moreau
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end (more … Thierry Moreau
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end (more … Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end (more … Mark Andrews
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end (more … Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Christian Huitema
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Doug Otis
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Paul Wouters
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Doug Otis
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end David Wilson
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end David Wilson
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- [Asrg] RISC is end to end (was Re: DNSSEC is NOT … Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end David Wilson
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end David Wilson
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end Masataka Ohta
- Re: [Asrg] DNSSEC is NOT secure end to end der Mouse
- Re: [Asrg] DNS over SCTP Alessandro Vesely