Re: [Asrg] C/R - What people say

Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net> Thu, 15 May 2003 05:34 UTC

Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA15936 for <asrg-archive@odin.ietf.org>; Thu, 15 May 2003 01:34:25 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from mailnull@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h4F51F318025 for asrg-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 15 May 2003 01:01:15 -0400
Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h4F51FB18022 for <asrg-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org>; Thu, 15 May 2003 01:01:15 -0400
Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA15924; Thu, 15 May 2003 01:33:55 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19GBPA-00041m-00; Thu, 15 May 2003 01:35:48 -0400
Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=www1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19GBPA-00041j-00; Thu, 15 May 2003 01:35:48 -0400
Received: from www1.ietf.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h4F503B17960; Thu, 15 May 2003 01:00:03 -0400
Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h4F4xOB17924 for <asrg@optimus.ietf.org>; Thu, 15 May 2003 00:59:24 -0400
Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA15859 for <asrg@ietf.org>; Thu, 15 May 2003 01:32:04 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19GBNN-00041G-00 for asrg@ietf.org; Thu, 15 May 2003 01:33:57 -0400
Received: from songbird.com ([208.184.79.7] helo=joy.songbird.com ident=root) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19GBNM-00041D-00 for asrg@ietf.org; Thu, 15 May 2003 01:33:57 -0400
Received: from adsl-68-120-68-23.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net (208.184.79.252.songbird.com [208.184.79.252] (may be forged)) by joy.songbird.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h4F5YlN09800 for <asrg@ietf.org>; Wed, 14 May 2003 22:34:47 -0700
From: Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net>
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.63 Beta/4) Personal
Reply-To: Dave Crocker <dcrocker@brandenburg.com>
Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Message-ID: <19612672051.20030514223713@brandenburg.com>
To: asrg@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Asrg] C/R - What people say
In-Reply-To: <200305150242.h4F2gu3k017638@calcite.rhyolite.com>
References: <MBEKIIAKLDHKMLNFJODBIEPBFCAA.eric@purespeed.com> <200305150242.h4F2gu3k017638@calcite.rhyolite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: asrg-admin@ietf.org
Errors-To: asrg-admin@ietf.org
X-BeenThere: asrg@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/asrg>, <mailto:asrg-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Id: Anti-Spam Research Group - IRTF <asrg.ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:asrg@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:asrg-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/asrg>, <mailto:asrg-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
List-Archive: <https://www1.ietf.org/pipermail/asrg/>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:37:13 -0700
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Vernon,

VS> I think that's an overstatement or beside the point.  While according
VS> to standards theory, Sender: headers may have nothing to do with
VS> whether the message is bulk, practice may differ.  I'd want to look
VS> at a few 1,000,000 private messages in a variety of locations and
VS> check the behavior of a bunch of MTAs and MUAs before guessing whether
VS> in practice "Sender" headers indicate "bulk."

a reasonable,empirical approach.  my assessment was based on knowing
that all sorts of different software sets the sender field, often quite
unecessarily.  on the other hand, there is no rule against setting it
unecessarily (that is, when it is wholly redundant with the From field)
and email users agents often do.



>> ok..very nice..so what do you propose for list detection?

VS> It's not Dave Crocker's fault that Sender headers do not necessarily
VS> indcate "bulk," and neither is it his responsibility to find a solution
VS> to your problem if they don't.  You could but don't absolutely need to
VS> thank him for pointing out a hole.

There are some explicit conventions involving mailing lists, though
conformance is extremely spotty.  As a simple example of headers that
are explicitly and exclusively used for mailing headers, folks might
want to look at the headers that are attached by the list mailer for
this very list...



d/
--
 Dave Crocker <mailto:dcrocker@brandenburg.com>
 Brandenburg InternetWorking <http://www.brandenburg.com>
 Sunnyvale, CA  USA <tel:+1.408.246.8253>, <fax:+1.866.358.5301>

_______________________________________________
Asrg mailing list
Asrg@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/asrg