From: James Sandford <james.sandford@bbc.co.uk>
To: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>,
 =?iso-8859-1?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
CC: Roni Even <roni.even@huawei.com>, "avtcore@ietf.org" <avtcore@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ttml-06.txt
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 10:01:23 +0000
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Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ttml-06.txt
Precedence: list

Shall do. Thanks Martin & Barry.=0A=
=0A=
Regards,=0A=
James.=0A=
=0A=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A=
James Sandford=0A=
R&D Project Engineer=0A=
=0A=
BBC Research and Development=0A=
5th Floor=0A=
Dock House=0A=
MediaCityUK=0A=
Salford=0A=
M50 2LH=0A=
=0A=
Tel: 030304 (09549)=0A=
Web: http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd=0A=
=0A=
________________________________________=0A=
From: Barry Leiba [barryleiba@computer.org]=0A=
Sent: 23 November 2019 00:52=0A=
To: Martin J. D=FCrst=0A=
Cc: James Sandford; Roni Even; avtcore@ietf.org=0A=
Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ttml-06.txt=0A=
=0A=
Nice; thanks for the review, Martin.=0A=
=0A=
James, please keep this in your notes and we can handle it during AUTH48.=
=0A=
=0A=
Barry=0A=
=0A=
On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 8:43 AM Martin J. D=FCrst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> =
wrote:=0A=
>=0A=
> Hello James,=0A=
>=0A=
> Many thank again for your quick followup.=0A=
>=0A=
> On 2019/11/22 20:04, James Sandford wrote:=0A=
> > Thank you. This helps a lot.=0A=
> >=0A=
> > The capitalisation is a mistake. Thanks for spotting.=0A=
> >=0A=
> > I think I agree with your points on the first sentence of the abstract =
and I understand your point on the use of "live workflows".=0A=
> >=0A=
> > Proposed changes:=0A=
> >=0A=
> >      Remove the workflows section of the first sentence in the abstract=
. Updated wording:=0A=
> >          This memo describes a Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) paylo=
ad format for TTML, an XML based timed text format from W3C.=0A=
> >=0A=
> >      Replace instances of "live workflows" with "streaming workflows".=
=0A=
> >=0A=
> >      Fix capitalisation mentioned.=0A=
> >=0A=
> > Would that be acceptable?=0A=
>=0A=
> That would be great.=0A=
>=0A=
> Regards,   Martin.=0A=
>=0A=
> > Regards,=0A=
> > James=0A=
> >=0A=
> >=0A=
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A=
> > James Sandford=0A=
> > R&D Project Engineer=0A=
> >=0A=
> > BBC Research and Development=0A=
> > 5th Floor=0A=
> > Dock House=0A=
> > MediaCityUK=0A=
> > Salford=0A=
> > M50 2LH=0A=
> >=0A=
> > Tel: 030304 (09549)=0A=
> > Web: http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd=0A=
> >=0A=
> > ________________________________________=0A=
> > From: Martin J. D=FCrst [duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp]=0A=
> > Sent: 22 November 2019 10:55=0A=
> > To: James Sandford; Barry Leiba; Roni Even=0A=
> > Cc: avtcore@ietf.org=0A=
> > Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ttml-06.txt=0A=
> >=0A=
> > Hello James,=0A=
> >=0A=
> > On 2019/11/22 19:01, James Sandford wrote:=0A=
> >> Could you expand? Workflow feels like the correct term for the context=
 of moving the media between endpoints in a generic sense to me.=0A=
> >=0A=
> > What doesn't work for me is that the first sentence in the Abstract say=
s=0A=
> > "TTML, an XML based timed text format for live and file based workflows=
=0A=
> > from W3C". What does TTML *itself* have to do with workflows, other tha=
n=0A=
> > that any kind of data format whatever can be integrated into dozens if=
=0A=
> > not hundreds of different workflows?=0A=
> >=0A=
> > Looking at the document a bit more, I also found one instance where=0A=
> > "Television Workflows" is capitalized, which surprises me, but may=0A=
> > indicate that "workflow" has a somewhat specific use in the TV industry=
.=0A=
> >=0A=
> > Also, in the last instance of "workflow" in the document, it is=0A=
> > "streaming workflows" rather than "live workflows". To me, "streaming"=
=0A=
> > sounds like the better word (for the second sentence of the abstract),=
=0A=
> > because it's less specific to TV, and my understanding (as an outsider)=
=0A=
> > would be that this RTP Payload is not restricted to live broadcasts, bu=
t=0A=
> > can also be used for streaming pre-recorded programming.=0A=
> >=0A=
> > Hope this helps.=0A=
> >=0A=
> > Regards,   Martin.=0A=
> >=0A=
> >> Regards,=0A=
> >> James=0A=
> >>=0A=
> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A=
> >> James Sandford=0A=
> >> R&D Project Engineer=0A=
> >>=0A=
> >> BBC Research and Development=0A=
> >> 5th Floor=0A=
> >> Dock House=0A=
> >> MediaCityUK=0A=
> >> Salford=0A=
> >> M50 2LH=0A=
> >>=0A=
> >> Tel: 030304 (09549)=0A=
> >> Web: http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd=0A=
> >>=0A=
> >> ________________________________________=0A=
> >> From: Martin J. D=FCrst [duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp]=0A=
> >> Sent: 22 November 2019 08:57=0A=
> >> To: James Sandford; Barry Leiba; Roni Even=0A=
> >> Cc: avtcore@ietf.org=0A=
> >> Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ttml-06.txt=0A=
> >>=0A=
> >> Hello James,=0A=
> >>=0A=
> >> Many thanks for your fast reply.=0A=
> >>=0A=
> >> On 2019/11/22 16:56, James Sandford wrote:=0A=
> >>> Hello,=0A=
> >>> Thanks for your comments. I don't believe "workflow" is broadcast spe=
cific. I've seen it used in the context of many processes where multiple ac=
tors handle something in sequence. This includes manufacturing workflows, s=
oftware development workflows, and even RFC creation. From the tools.ietf.o=
rg page:=0A=
> >>>=0A=
> >>>        The New Internet Draft Submission Tool replaces the older Draf=
t Submission Tool and the even older email submission workflow=0A=
> >>>=0A=
> >>> Are you unfamiliar with the term "workflow" or suggesting its inappro=
priate in this context?=0A=
> >>=0A=
> >> The later, not the former. (In the context of your other examples abov=
e,=0A=
> >> the word workflow seems very natural to me.)=0A=
> >>=0A=
> >> Regards,   Martin.=0A=
> >>=0A=
> >>> Regards,=0A=
> >>> James=0A=
> >>>=0A=
> >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0A=
> >>> James Sandford=0A=
> >>> R&D Project Engineer=0A=
> >>>=0A=
> >>> BBC Research and Development=0A=
> >>> 5th Floor=0A=
> >>> Dock House=0A=
> >>> MediaCityUK=0A=
> >>> Salford=0A=
> >>> M50 2LH=0A=
> >>>=0A=
> >>> Tel: 030304 (09549)=0A=
> >>> Web: http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd=0A=
> >>>=0A=
> >>> ________________________________________=0A=
> >>> From: Martin J. D=FCrst [duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp]=0A=
> >>> Sent: 22 November 2019 07:02=0A=
> >>> To: Barry Leiba; Roni Even; James Sandford=0A=
> >>> Cc: avtcore@ietf.org=0A=
> >>> Subject: Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-rtp-ttml-06.txt=0A=
> >>>=0A=
> >>> Sorry that this only just now cought my eye, but the document is in t=
he=0A=
> >>> RFC Editor's queue for only 1 day yet, and I think there are serious=
=0A=
> >>> editorial changes that would improve the document quite a bit.=0A=
> >>>=0A=
> >>> The document mentions the word "workflow" to describe TTML several=0A=
> >>> times, in particular two times in the abstract. This was surprising t=
o=0A=
> >>> me because while I have been involved in W3C for a long time, I have=
=0A=
> >>> never heard the word "workflow" in connection with TTTML.=0A=
> >>>=0A=
> >>> I just checked, and indeed Timed Text Markup Language 2 (TTML2)=0A=
> >>> (W3C Recommendation 08 November 2018, https://www.w3.org/TR/ttml2/)=
=0A=
> >>> doesn't mention the word "workflow" a single time. The way TTML=0A=
> >>> describes itself is:=0A=
> >>>=0A=
> >>>        The Timed Text Markup Language is a content type that=0A=
> >>>        represents timed text media for the purpose of interchange=0A=
> >>>        among authoring systems. Timed text is textual information=0A=
> >>>        that is intrinsically or extrinsically associated with=0A=
> >>>        timing information.=0A=
> >>>=0A=
> >>> The word "workflow" may have a very specific meaning in the televisio=
n=0A=
> >>> industry, which lead the author of this document to choose this word,=
=0A=
> >>> but it is very confusing for readers not familiar with such terminolo=
gy.=0A=
> >>> So in order to avoid such confusion, I strongly suggest to=0A=
> >>> remove/replace the word "workflow" from the document, and in particul=
ar=0A=
> >>> from the abstract. Given the nature of RTP, it seems to me that it's=
=0A=
> >>> pretty obvious that a payload format is needed for 'live' use cases, =
and=0A=
> >>> not for file transfer (which may be done with HTTP or FTP or whatever=
=0A=
> >>> else). So I don't think there is a need to bring in the specific=0A=
> >>> viewpoint of the TV industry and therewith confuse people from other=
=0A=
> >>> industries and describe TTML in a completely different way than peopl=
e=0A=
> >>> in general are understanding it.=0A=
> >>>=0A=
> >>> Sorry this got a bit long, but I hope I got my point across. If I sho=
uld=0A=
> >>> send this somewhere else, please tell me.=0A=
> >>>=0A=
> >>> Regards,   Martin.=0A=
> >> .=0A=
> >>=0A=
> > .=0A=
> >=0A=