Re: [AVTCORE] Comments on draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-07
Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> Thu, 03 November 2011 13:34 UTC
Return-Path: <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8076D1F0C70 for <avt@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 3 Nov 2011 06:34:45 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -106.579
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.579 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tIo3Ps6BXU+d for <avt@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 3 Nov 2011 06:34:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (mailgw10.se.ericsson.net [193.180.251.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 452D111E8087 for <avt@ietf.org>; Thu, 3 Nov 2011 06:34:44 -0700 (PDT)
X-AuditID: c1b4fb3d-b7c26ae0000035b9-8d-4eb2987327cd
Received: from esessmw0237.eemea.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.115.90]) by mailgw10.se.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id B4.1F.13753.37892BE4; Thu, 3 Nov 2011 14:34:43 +0100 (CET)
Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.115.8) by esessmw0237.eemea.ericsson.se (153.88.115.91) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.3.137.0; Thu, 3 Nov 2011 14:34:40 +0100
Message-ID: <4EB2986F.2000301@ericsson.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:34:39 +0100
From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110929 Thunderbird/7.0.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
References: <4E8D76C1.5080508@ericsson.com> <BAC40485A1FA456CA771192D4F750C77@china.huawei.com> <4E9E93A0.10701@ericsson.com> <06E9C1CF3B7D47B5A8FC8540EABA2FAF@china.huawei.com>
In-Reply-To: <06E9C1CF3B7D47B5A8FC8540EABA2FAF@china.huawei.com>
X-Enigmail-Version: 1.3.2
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA==
Cc: IETF AVTCore WG <avt@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Comments on draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-07
X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance <avt.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/avt>, <mailto:avt-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/avt>
List-Post: <mailto:avt@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:avt-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt>, <mailto:avt-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 13:34:45 -0000
On 2011-10-20 11:27, Qin Wu wrote: > Hi, Magnus: > Thank for your replies. please see inline. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Magnus Westerlund" <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> > To: "Qin Wu" <bill.wu@huawei.com> > Cc: "IETF AVTCore WG" <avt@ietf.org>; <draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp@tools.ietf.org> > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 5:08 PM > Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Comments on draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback-supression-rtp-07 > > >> Hi, >> >> Sorry for the delay in following up. >> >> I have removed the issues which don't need further discussion. >> >> >> On 2011-10-11 03:40, Qin Wu wrote: >>> Hi, Magnus, >>> Thank for your valuable review, please see my replies belows. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Magnus Westerlund" <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com >> >>> 2. Section 3. >>> "The timer value shall be >>> based on the observed round-trip time. A receiver should compute an >>> estimate of the round-trip time (RTT) to the sender of TPLR from RTCP >>> report round-trip time if available, or its reception time of the >>> reflected RTCP FB message (e.g.,NACK), or any other means." >>> >>> We hade the discussion before but now that you clarified which RTT to be >>> used, I think it is worth having a discussion if that RTT is the right >>> one. So you suggest that the RTT between the sender of the TPLR and the >>> receiver of the message is the most appropriate to use when suppressing >>> the message. I am not certain that is the case. >>> >>> Lets consider the use cases. In the case of an intermediary in a >>> distribution tree sending the TPLR and at the same time sending a NACK >>> upstream. Then the time until the retransmission reaches the suppressed >>> receiver is the time from the sending of the NACK up to the >>> retransmitting entity and all the way down past the TPLR sender to the >>> suppressed receiver. The receiver may not have a true RTT to the >>> original media sender as that source appears to live at the TPLR sender, >>> not further upstream. >>> >>> Yes, the sender of the TPLR and the receiver might at least have mutual >>> knowledge of each other, thus the TPLR sender is able to determine the >>> lowest RTT in the set of receviers thus determining how often to repeat >>> it to cover additional time requried for the upstream part of the >>> request. But I do note that these times aren't matching what appear to >>> be the delays in the systems. >>> >>> Can we find a better solution? >>> >>> >>> [Qin]: It looks to me the round trip time between media source and >>> >>> intermediary is trivial if we assume the intermediary is much >>> >>> closer to the source, that is why I put the last paragraph in the >>> >>> section 3 as follows: >>> >>> “ >>> >>> In order not to incur a lot of NACK requests due to additional TPLR >>> >>> described above, it is recommended that the RTP system sending >>> >>> TPLR should be implemented more closer to the source. Also when >>> >>> the loss was detected and repair initiated much closer to the source, >>> >>> the delay for the receiver to recover from packet loss can be reduced >>> >>> through the combination of intermediary feedback to the source and >>> >>> Third Party Loss Report downstream. >>> >>> ” >>> >>> >>> >>> If we look for a better solution, I think we have two possible ways: >>> >>> The first way is to rely on sender report from media sender to >>> >>> calculate the more approximate RTT from media sender to the receiver. >>> >>> RTT measurement method follows the same way described in the >>> >>> figure 2 of RFC3550. >>> >>> >>> >>> The second way is to we can allow the intermediary tell the receiver the >>> >>> RTT from media source to intermediary itself by sending a new message >>> >>> since the intermediary can measure such RTT based on past observation >>> >>> and estimation. However for the second way we need to define new >>> >>> message or extend TPLR message to carry such RTT. >>> >>> >>> >>> What do you think? >>> >> >> From follow up email: >>> Hi,Magnus: As regarding if there is better solution, I have some >>> corrections and additional thoughts. >>> I think If the media source is the repair server, the receiver should >>> set timer to T1=max(the RTT from media source to middlebox sending >>> TPLR, 1/2 of RTT from middlebox to receiver) when the receiver >>> receives first TPLR. When the receiver receive addtional TPLR within >>> T1, the receiver should reset the timer to the RTT from media source >>> to middlebox sending TPLR. >>> >>> If the middlebox is the repair server, the receiver should set the >>> timer to T2=1/2 of RTT from middlebox to receiver when the receiver >>> receives first TPLR. When the receiver receive addtional TPLR within >>> T2, the receiver should reset the timer to the T2. >>> >> >> Can you express these rules for the receiver as something that is based >> on what is observable from the RTP and RTCP traffic? Is when media >> server being repair server equal to TPLR sender SSRC = Media SSRC the >> TPLR applies on? And if they are not the same it is the second case? >> > > > [Qin]: Okay, I think the media source will not be the TPLR sender. > > > > The receiver should set the timer for the retransmitted data packet when it receive the first TPLR. > > > > > If the sender of Retransmitted data packet is the media source, the timer value shall be > > based on the observed time difference between the round-trip time from the receiver to > > the original media source and the round-trip time from the receiver to the sender of the TPLR. How does the receiver of a TPLR know that the sender of the retransmitted data packet will be the media stream source? And if this if statement is not true, what should the timer value be? > > > > A receiver should compute an estimate of the round-trip time (RTT) to the original media source > > from Sender Report (SR) packets for the original stream, or any other means. The round-trip time > > from the receiver to the sender of the TPLR can be calculated from RTCP report round-trip time > > if available, or any other means. > I think this needs to be more explicit on how that estimate actually can be done and what precision we expect in it. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------
- [AVTCORE] Comments on draft-ietf-avtcore-feedback… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [AVTCORE] Comments on draft-ietf-avtcore-feed… Qin Wu
- Re: [AVTCORE] Comments ondraft-ietf-avtcore-feedb… Qin Wu
- Re: [AVTCORE] Comments on draft-ietf-avtcore-feed… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [AVTCORE] Comments on draft-ietf-avtcore-feed… Qin Wu
- Re: [AVTCORE] Comments on draft-ietf-avtcore-feed… Roni Even
- Re: [AVTCORE] Comments on draft-ietf-avtcore-feed… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [AVTCORE] Comments on draft-ietf-avtcore-feed… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [AVTCORE] Comments on draft-ietf-avtcore-feed… Qin Wu
- Re: [AVTCORE] Comments on draft-ietf-avtcore-feed… Roni even
- Re: [AVTCORE] Comments on draft-ietf-avtcore-feed… Magnus Westerlund