Re: [AVTCORE] [Wish] Video ingest over QUIC

[Lucas Pardue <[e-mail]>]

On Fri, 16 Jul 2021, 19:36 Spencer Dawkins at IETF, <
[e-mail]> wrote:

> This is, of course, why ADs get paid the big bucks (ha!), but
>
> On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 12:10 PM Mike English <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
>> I would personally be very interested in a "video over QUIC" working
>> group or mailing list.
>>
>
> Martin Thompson said (in a reply that, I think, only went to the QUIC
> mailing list(*)) that he thought this was big enough to BOF (which doesn't
> mean it shouldn't be discussed at DISPATCH at IETF 111), but does say
> something about what a mailing list could be used for. Offhand, I can
> imagine:
>
>    - discussion of the existing
>    https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kpugin-rush-00.html draft
>    - discussion of potential scope for a BOF proposal
>    - discussion of proposed text for a BOF request
>
> Could I ask what the people who are expressing interest in a mailing list
> are thinking about?
>

+1. Good questions.

There seems to be some appetite for _something_ that doesn't fit in
existing boxes. Defining exactly what might be would be a sensible step on
the path to a BoF.

Cheers,
Lucas


>
> Best,
>
> Spencer
>
> (*) email is archived at
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/quic/ocCm8E-GzP_pn4LBcJyKQeN7GRU/.
>
> The directness of this draft is perhaps what's most interesting to me.
>> In particular, the absence of out-of-band signaling / session
>> establishment stands in striking contrast with another UDP-based media
>> ingest option: WebRTC.
>>
>> The signaling needed for session establishment (and the diversity of
>> implementations for such signaling) has historically been a barrier for
>> WebRTC adoption as an ingest protocol outside of the browser context.
>> WISH-WG is working to improve that situation for WebRTC of course, but a
>> new QUIC-based ingest protocol presents an opportunity to sidestep some of
>> those known-issues by making an architectural decision up front about
>> whether that style of session management is necessary in a video
>> contribution workflow.
>>
>> I'm hoping others with more experience on these lists can speak to the
>> history and tradeoffs associated with those approaches, but I just wanted
>> to call attention to the aspect of the draft that seemed most notable to me
>> as an operator of a low latency streaming platform where WebRTC egress and
>> ingest capabilities are provided, but where RTMP is still the de facto
>> ingest protocol of choice for many users.
>>
>> Thanks for sharing this work!
>> -Mike
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 12:32 PM Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv=
>> [e-mail]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Alan,
>>>
>>> Excited to see this draft!
>>>
>>> Since this isn't technically in scope for either avtcore, wish or quic
>>> working groups, what would people think about making a new mailing list for
>>> video over QUIC?
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>  Victor.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 3:27 AM Justin Uberti <
>>> [e-mail]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 1:35 PM Roberto Peon <fenix=
>>>> [e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Seems like a good idea to me, unless there is a home that is already
>>>>> well suited!
>>>>>
>>>>> -=R
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From: *QUIC <[e-mail]> on behalf of Luke Curley <
>>>>> [e-mail]>
>>>>> *Date: *Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 1:16 PM
>>>>> *To: *Alan Frindell <afrind=[e-mail]>
>>>>> *Cc: *"[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>, Sergio Garcia Murillo <
>>>>> [e-mail]>, "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>, "
>>>>> [e-mail]" <[e-mail]>, Kirill Pugin <[e-mail]>
>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Wish] Video ingest over QUIC
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey Alan, thanks for publishing your protocol!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Twitch has also been working on a video over QUIC protocol, albeit
>>>>> primarily for video distribution instead of contribution. We're very
>>>>> interested in collaborating on RUSH and producing a new standard for live
>>>>> streaming! Would there be broader interest in forming a video over QUIC
>>>>> working group?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 12:04 PM Alan Frindell <afrind=
>>>>> [e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Sergio, thanks for your interest in the draft.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I’m interested in seeing a video ingest protocol standard that
>>>>> leverages QUIC as a transport, has some partial reliability support, and is
>>>>> less connection-oriented so that servers can go down for maintenance
>>>>> without impacting ingest reliability or having arbitrarily long drain
>>>>> times.  We published our RUSH draft to help kickstart the conversation but
>>>>> we’re open to feedback and modifications if they help advance those goals.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -Alan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From: *Sergio Garcia Murillo <[e-mail]>
>>>>> *Date: *Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 9:02 AM
>>>>> *To: *Alan Frindell <[e-mail]>
>>>>> *Cc: *"[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>, "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>,
>>>>> "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>, Kirill Pugin <[e-mail]>
>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Wish] Video ingest over QUIC
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Alan,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that the correct place for discussing it is AVTCORE as Bernard
>>>>> has indicated, as  WISH is not chartered to implement any new media
>>>>> protocol.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The draft is very interesting and I would be willing to collaborate,
>>>>> what is your main interest? Do you want to try to publish it as it is or
>>>>> would you be accepting feedback and include modifications?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Sergio
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> El mar, 13 jul 2021 a las 17:37, Alan Frindell (<afrind=
>>>>> [e-mail]>) escribió:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi, for several years, Facebook has been using its own video ingest
>>>>> protocol over QUIC from our apps to our infra.  While we’ve spoken about it
>>>>> before, we just now published a draft documenting how it works:
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kpugin-rush-00.html.
>>>>>
>>>>> The protocol leverages the advantages of QUIC transport, and features
>>>>> a partially reliable mode using only QUIC v1 RST_STREAM.
>>>>>
>>>>> We welcome your feedback
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> -Alan Frindell
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Wish mailing list
>>>>> [e-mail]
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/wish
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Wish mailing list
>>>>> [e-mail]
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/wish
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance
>>>>> [e-mail]
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>> Wish mailing list
>>> [e-mail]
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/wish
>>>
>>