Re: [AVTCORE] [Wish] Video ingest over QUIC

This is, of course, why ADs get paid the big bucks (ha!), but

On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 12:10 PM Mike English <ietf@englishm.net> wrote:

> I would personally be very interested in a "video over QUIC" working group
> or mailing list.
>

Martin Thompson said (in a reply that, I think, only went to the QUIC
mailing list(*)) that he thought this was big enough to BOF (which doesn't
mean it shouldn't be discussed at DISPATCH at IETF 111), but does say
something about what a mailing list could be used for. Offhand, I can
imagine:

   - discussion of the existing
   https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kpugin-rush-00.html draft
   - discussion of potential scope for a BOF proposal
   - discussion of proposed text for a BOF request

Could I ask what the people who are expressing interest in a mailing list
are thinking about?

Best,

Spencer

(*) email is archived at
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/quic/ocCm8E-GzP_pn4LBcJyKQeN7GRU/.

The directness of this draft is perhaps what's most interesting to me.
> In particular, the absence of out-of-band signaling / session
> establishment stands in striking contrast with another UDP-based media
> ingest option: WebRTC.
>
> The signaling needed for session establishment (and the diversity of
> implementations for such signaling) has historically been a barrier for
> WebRTC adoption as an ingest protocol outside of the browser context.
> WISH-WG is working to improve that situation for WebRTC of course, but a
> new QUIC-based ingest protocol presents an opportunity to sidestep some of
> those known-issues by making an architectural decision up front about
> whether that style of session management is necessary in a video
> contribution workflow.
>
> I'm hoping others with more experience on these lists can speak to the
> history and tradeoffs associated with those approaches, but I just wanted
> to call attention to the aspect of the draft that seemed most notable to me
> as an operator of a low latency streaming platform where WebRTC egress and
> ingest capabilities are provided, but where RTMP is still the de facto
> ingest protocol of choice for many users.
>
> Thanks for sharing this work!
> -Mike
>
> On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 12:32 PM Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv=
> 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Alan,
>>
>> Excited to see this draft!
>>
>> Since this isn't technically in scope for either avtcore, wish or quic
>> working groups, what would people think about making a new mailing list for
>> video over QUIC?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>  Victor.
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 3:27 AM Justin Uberti <
>> juberti@alphaexplorationco.com> wrote:
>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 1:35 PM Roberto Peon <fenix=
>>> 40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Seems like a good idea to me, unless there is a home that is already
>>>> well suited!
>>>>
>>>> -=R
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From: *QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Luke Curley <
>>>> kixelated@gmail.com>
>>>> *Date: *Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 1:16 PM
>>>> *To: *Alan Frindell <afrind=40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
>>>> *Cc: *"quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Sergio Garcia Murillo <
>>>> sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com>, "avt@ietf.org" <avt@ietf.org>, "
>>>> wish@ietf.org" <wish@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Wish] Video ingest over QUIC
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hey Alan, thanks for publishing your protocol!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Twitch has also been working on a video over QUIC protocol, albeit
>>>> primarily for video distribution instead of contribution. We're very
>>>> interested in collaborating on RUSH and producing a new standard for live
>>>> streaming! Would there be broader interest in forming a video over QUIC
>>>> working group?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 13, 2021 at 12:04 PM Alan Frindell <afrind=
>>>> 40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Sergio, thanks for your interest in the draft.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I’m interested in seeing a video ingest protocol standard that
>>>> leverages QUIC as a transport, has some partial reliability support, and is
>>>> less connection-oriented so that servers can go down for maintenance
>>>> without impacting ingest reliability or having arbitrarily long drain
>>>> times.  We published our RUSH draft to help kickstart the conversation but
>>>> we’re open to feedback and modifications if they help advance those goals.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From: *Sergio Garcia Murillo <sergio.garcia.murillo@gmail.com>
>>>> *Date: *Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 9:02 AM
>>>> *To: *Alan Frindell <afrind@fb.com>
>>>> *Cc: *"quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, "wish@ietf.org" <wish@ietf.org>,
>>>> "avt@ietf.org" <avt@ietf.org>, Kirill Pugin <ikir@fb.com>
>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Wish] Video ingest over QUIC
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Alan,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think that the correct place for discussing it is AVTCORE as Bernard
>>>> has indicated, as  WISH is not chartered to implement any new media
>>>> protocol.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The draft is very interesting and I would be willing to collaborate,
>>>> what is your main interest? Do you want to try to publish it as it is or
>>>> would you be accepting feedback and include modifications?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best regards
>>>>
>>>> Sergio
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> El mar, 13 jul 2021 a las 17:37, Alan Frindell (<afrind=
>>>> 40fb.com@dmarc.ietf.org>) escribió:
>>>>
>>>> Hi, for several years, Facebook has been using its own video ingest
>>>> protocol over QUIC from our apps to our infra.  While we’ve spoken about it
>>>> before, we just now published a draft documenting how it works:
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kpugin-rush-00.html.
>>>>
>>>> The protocol leverages the advantages of QUIC transport, and features a
>>>> partially reliable mode using only QUIC v1 RST_STREAM.
>>>>
>>>> We welcome your feedback
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> -Alan Frindell
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Wish mailing list
>>>> Wish@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/wish
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Wish mailing list
>>>> Wish@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/wish
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance
>>>> avt@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt
>>>>
>>> --
>> Wish mailing list
>> Wish@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/wish
>>
>