Re: [bfcpbis] draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis

Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> Thu, 24 September 2015 09:53 UTC

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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" <eckelcu@cisco.com>, "Tom Kristensen (tomkrist)" <tomkrist@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [bfcpbis] draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis
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Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 09:53:47 +0000
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Cc: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>, "bfcpbis@ietf.org" <bfcpbis@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis@tools.ietf.org>, Gonzalo Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis
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Hi Charles,

I am still not sure I understand your suggestion: what is meant by "as determined prior to publication"? When/where/who? :)

Regards,

Christer

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Eckel (eckelcu) [mailto:eckelcu@cisco.com] 
Sent: 22. syyskuuta 2015 17:05
To: Christer Holmberg; Tom Kristensen (tomkrist)
Cc: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis@tools.ietf.org; bfcpbis@ietf.org; Alissa Cooper; Gonzalo Camarillo; Ben Campbell
Subject: Re: [bfcpbis] draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis

I view referring to draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp now instead of RFC 5763 to be like writing a blank check. Debate is actively occurring on the list, the normative language in RFC 5763 is expected to be updated in multiple ways, and backward compatibility with the the normative language provide in previous version of rfc4583bis is not fully addressed. It seems more appropriate to me at this stage to continue to refer to RFC 5763 with a note regarding updating or replacing that reference with one to draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp, as determined prior to publication.

Cheers,
Charles 

On 9/21/15, 11:48 PM, "Christer Holmberg" <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
wrote:

>Hi,
>
>>I see. As this is a moving target, perhaps where we reference RFC 5763 
>>we can add a note for the RFC editor that draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp 
>>is expected to add clarifications and make changes to RFC 5763 that 
>>should be considered prior to publication of rfc4583bis.
>
>I am not sure I understand. I don't think it's up to the RFC editor to 
>make a decision whether the draft should reference DTLS-SDP.
>
>Regards,
>
>Christer
>
>
>
>On 9/21/15, 11:23 AM, "Christer Holmberg" 
><christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>>RFC 5763, which is currently required for BFCP with DTLS reads:
>>>
>>>   o  The endpoint MUST NOT use the connection attribute defined in
>>>     [RFC4145 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4145>].
>>
>>Correct.
>>
>>And, IF we decide to use define usage of the 'connection' attribute 
>>for DTLS, we would change that.
>>
>>However, a few days ago we sent an e-mail to the MMUSIC list, 
>>suggesting that we should NOT use the 'connection' attribute for DTLS.
>>Instead we should define a new attribute (for more details, please see 
>>the MMUSIC list).
>>
>>>Section 5.1 of draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp reads:
>>>
>>>   When used with DTLS, there is no default value defined for the
>>>   attribute.  Implementations that wish to use the attribute MUST
>>>   explicitly include it in SDP offers and answers.  If an offer or
>>>   answer does not contain an attribute, other means needs to be used in
>>>   order for endpoints to determine whether an offer or answer is
>>>   associated with an event that requires the DTLS association to be re-
>>>   established.
>>>
>>> I suppose if draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp pulls in enough from RFC 
>>>5763 to make it clear how the DTLS establishment and re-establishment 
>>>works for the case of which the connection attribute is not used, 
>>>then we can change the reference from RFC 5763 to draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp.
>>>
>>> The last several updates of draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis have 
>>>removed supporting text from the draft in favor of pointing to RFC
>>>5763 as the  source of truth. I fear that draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp 
>>>in its current state does not serve that need for 
>>>draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis. I value  Christer’s thoughts and 
>>>welcome the opinion of others, especially those who have or are 
>>>implementing BFCP with DTLS and ICE, which I have not.
>>
>>Please note that DTLS-SDP does not only define usage of the 'connection'
>>attribute, it also does other things. Maybe more important, it does 
>>not state that an address change by default requires a new DTLS 
>>association
>>- which is a another 5763 modification.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Christer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On 9/21/15, 9:32 AM, "bfcpbis on behalf of Christer Holmberg"
>><bfcpbis-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Hi Charles,
>>>
>>>>The problem I see with this is that it is not just a matter of 
>>>>changing the reference, it is also a matter of changing the 
>>>>normative behavior.
>>>>For DTLS with BFCP, we never required the use of the >“connection”
>>>>attribute.
>>>>If we are to start requiring it, we would need add text to describe 
>>>>how to address backward compatibility in cases in which the 
>>>>connection attribute is not specified.
>>>
>>>The intention is to cover backward compatibility in the draft.
>>>
>>>>Are there plans for this within RFC 5763bis draft? If so, Tom’s 
>>>>recommendation of continuing to point to RFC 5763 for now may be the 
>>>>best approach.
>>>
>>>I am not familiar with the 5763bis draft. But, even if the DTLS-SDP 
>>>draft makes updates to 5763, it won't become a 5763bis draft.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>
>>>Christer
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>On 9/11/15, 1:11 PM, "Christer Holmberg"
>>><christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hi,
>>>>
>>>>>Hmm, yes maybe an idea if it's fine proceeding with referring a 
>>>>>work-in-progress draft here.
>>>>>What if we keep the text and adds this as an additional reference 
>>>>>in the two new text passages proposed by Charles: "... [13], and 
>>>>>the clarifications defined in [draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp], ...".
>>>>>
>>>>>Where [13] is a reference to RFC 5763.
>>>>
>>>>My suggestion is to *only* refer the new dtls-sdp draft. Because, 
>>>>one of the ideas with the new draft is to also update RFC 5763 to 
>>>>reference the new dtls-sdp draft.
>>>>
>>>>>Anyway, I'd still prefer to keep the text in
>>>>>draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis-12 and redirect the readers to the 
>>>>>rfc5763bis, that eventually then will obsolete (or extend?) RFC 5763.
>>>>
>>>>The new dtls-sdp draft will not become 5763bis (eventhough it MAY 
>>>>update some parts of 5763). It's a generic document, which *any* 
>>>>DTLS usage can then reference.
>>>>
>>>>Regards,
>>>>
>>>>Christer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On 09/11/2015 01:25 PM, Christer Holmberg wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> My suggestion would actually be to refer to the new 
>>>>>draft-ietf-mmusic-dtls-sdp, which is going to clarify the DTLS-SRTP 
>>>>>rules regarding when a new DTLS association must be established.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Christer
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Tom Kristensen [mailto:tomkrist@cisco.com]
>>>>> Sent: 11. syyskuuta 2015 13:25
>>>>> To: Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
>>>>> Cc: Christer Holmberg; Alissa Cooper; Gonzalo Camarillo; 
>>>>> draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis@tools.ietf.org; Ben Campbell; 
>>>>> bfcpbis@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis
>>>>>
>>>>> Pointing to the DTLS-SRTP (and by that any updates of it) is a 
>>>>>simple, safe and straigt-forward solution.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only change in the new version of rfc4583bis just submitted.
>>>>>And as Charles says, this should be the last missing fix for this 
>>>>>draft until next stages in the process at least.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Tom
>>>>>
>>>>> On 09/08/2015 07:48 PM, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) wrote:
>>>>>    
>>>>>> Picking up on this old thread regarding 
>>>>>>draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis.
>>>>>> I think this is the only outstanding item with respect to the 
>>>>>>current  version of the draft. Unless anyone has an issue with the 
>>>>>>proposed  resolution, I request we update the draft accordingly 
>>>>>>and then use it  as the basis for Mary, the document shepherd, to 
>>>>>>provide a proto writeup.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Charles
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/20/15, 10:39 AM, "Charles Eckel 
>>>>>>(eckelcu)"<eckelcu@cisco.com>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      
>>>>>>> Hi Christer,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I reread the current draft and went through the following MMUSIC 
>>>>>>> thread on this subject:
>>>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/mmusic/current/msg14631.htm
>>>>>>> l
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a result, I better understand the issue you are addressing. I 
>>>>>>> suggest the following changes to be consistent with what is 
>>>>>>> being proposed in
>>>>>>> MMUSIC:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------
>>>>>>> Section 9:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OLD:
>>>>>>> Endpoints that use the offer/answer model to establish a DTLS
>>>>>>>     association MUST support the 'setup' attribute, as defined 
>>>>>>>in [7].
>>>>>>> When DTLS is used with UDP, the 'setup' attribute indicates 
>>>>>>>which of the endpoints (client or floor control server) initiates 
>>>>>>>the DTLS association setup. The requirements for the offer/answer 
>>>>>>>exchange specified in [13], Section 5 of [13] MUST be followed 
>>>>>>>when using DTLS.
>>>>>>> Offer/answer considerations are described in Section 10.5.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>>> When DTLS is used with UDP, the requirements specified in 
>>>>>>> Section
>>>>>>> 5 of [13] MUST be followed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Section 10.5
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OLD
>>>>>>>     If the transport parameters or the key fingerprints change, the
>>>>>>>     endpoints MUST establish a new DTLS connection.  In such 
>>>>>>>case the
>>>>>>>     'active/passive' status of the endpoints will again be 
>>>>>>>determined
>>>>>>>     following the procedures in [7], and the new status will be 
>>>>>>>used to
>>>>>>>     determine the TLS roles associated with the new DTLS 
>>>>>>>connection.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>        Informational note: The procedure above is identical to 
>>>>>>>the one
>>>>>>>        defined for DTLS-SRTP in [13].
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>        Note: A new DTLS connection needs to be established if the
>>>>>>>        transport parameters or the key fingerprints change.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>>> The conditions under which endpoints MUST establish a new DTLS 
>>>>>>> connection are as the same defined for DTLS-SRTP in [13].
>>>>>>> ————————
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This way we avoid any potential conflicts with the intent of RFC 
>>>>>>> 5763, and when clarifications to RFC 5763 are made, they will be 
>>>>>>> picked up by the BFCP spec.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Charles
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/18/15, 2:01 PM, "Christer
>>>>>>> Holmberg"<christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>        
>>>>>>>> Hi Charles,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>          
>>>>>>>>> [adding bfcppbis list]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Christer,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your review and comments. In the BFCP usage, the 
>>>>>>>>>DTLS connection is dedicated to the BFCP stream it contains. As 
>>>>>>>>>I understand it, the complications around DTLS 
>>>>>>>>>re-establishement discussed in MMUSIC result from use of a 
>>>>>>>>>single DTLS connection for multiple RTP and/or SCTP streams. 
>>>>>>>>>Those complications do not exist with the BFCP usage, so I 
>>>>>>>>>think it is sufficient to continue to reference RFC 5763 and 
>>>>>>>>>not use the SDP connection attribute.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>          
>>>>>>>> The complications do not result from use of a single DTLS  
>>>>>>>>connection for multiple streams - it mainly results from the  
>>>>>>>>usage of ICE. And, as far as I know, ICE can be used also for 
>>>>>>>>BFCP.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And, even without ICE we intend to add text saying that a DTLS 
>>>>>>>>connection is only re-established if the underlying transport 
>>>>>>>>changes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Christer
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>          
>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> First, I want to apologize for not providing my review earlier.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As far as the BFCP specifics are concerned, I am ok with the 
>>>>>>>>> latest version of the draft.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> However, there is an issue regarding the DTLS considerations 
>>>>>>>>> (section 10.5).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The text says:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 	"Once a DTLS connection has been established, if the 
>>>>>>>>>'active/passive'
>>>>>>>>>     	status of the endpoints change during a session, a new DTLS
>>>>>>>>>     	connection MUST be established."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is currently an ongoing discussion in MMUSIC about when 
>>>>>>>>> a DTLS connection is to be re-established.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The discussion is still ongoing, but the outcome will most 
>>>>>>>>> likely NOT be aligned with the text above.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For example, there has been a suggestion (by myself) to use 
>>>>>>>>> the SDP connection attribute to explicitly indicate that a new 
>>>>>>>>> DTLS connection needs to be established.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The draft also says:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 	"If the transport parameters or the key fingerprints change, the
>>>>>>>>>     	endpoints MUST establish a new DTLS connection."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is related to the earlier issue. There is the discussion 
>>>>>>>>>about ICE "virtual connections", and that a single DTLS 
>>>>>>>>>connection would apply to all ICE candidates associated with an
>>>>>>>>> m- line. So, even if a candidate changes (read: transport 
>>>>>>>>>parameter changes), it would not automatically trigger a new 
>>>>>>>>>DTLS connection.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The issues above are also holding up the SCTP-SDP draft, so it 
>>>>>>>>> doesn't only affect BFCPbis :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Christer
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in]
>>>>>>>>> Sent: 8. huhtikuuta 2015 3:07
>>>>>>>>> To: Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
>>>>>>>>> Cc: Gonzalo Camarillo; Tom Kristensen (tomkrist); 
>>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis@tools.ietf.org; Ben Campbell; 
>>>>>>>>> Christer Holmberg
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Adding Christer to this thread.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 7, 2015, at 12:44 PM, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) 
>>>>>>>>> <eckelcu@cisco.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>          
>>>>>>>>>> Christer (cc’d) and I discussed some of the changes offlist 
>>>>>>>>>> in Dallas, and he is to come back to the list with comments 
>>>>>>>>>> after Dallas
>>>>>>>>>> - which is now :)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>> Charles
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/7/15, 10:26 AM, "Alissa Cooper"<alissa@cooperw.in>   wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>         
>>>>>>>>>>> Checking in on this — has Christer been prompted to review 
>>>>>>>>>>> the latest rev of draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4583bis?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>> Alissa
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 25, 2015, at 9:14 AM, Charles Eckel (eckelcu) 
>>>>>>>>>>> <eckelcu@cisco.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>        
>>>>>>>>>>>> Most of the changes I this recent update to rfc4583bis were 
>>>>>>>>>>>>inspired by comments and suggested text provided by Christer.
>>>>>>>>>>>> He is in the process of reviewing. If all goes well with 
>>>>>>>>>>>>that, we are ready to proceed with proto writeup (Mary) and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>AD review.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Charles
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/25/15, 7:01 AM, "Alissa Cooper"<alissa@cooperw.in>
>>>>>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>       
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rfc4583 has not had an AD review yet. Richard can 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>hopefully take care of that while I¹m on leave (starting 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>today, actually).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 25, 2015, at 2:56 AM, Gonzalo Camarillo
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>   wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Alissa,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have noted that while rfc4582bis in on the agenda of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the March 5th telechat (thanks for handling that!), 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rfc4583bis isn't. Tom revised rfc4583bis on February 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 20th. Should rfc4583bis be on the agenda of the telechat 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as well or there is still something left for Tom to take care of?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gonzalo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18/02/2015 9:28 PM, Alissa Cooper wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pinging on this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> March 5 will likely be my last telechat before going on 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leave, so  it would be great to get this scheduled on 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that one. To do that,  the rev needs to be posted today.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The updates are pretty minimal  and are all basically 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> written up in Charles¹ response to my AD review.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alissa
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 15, 2015, at 9:13 AM, Gonzalo Camarillo 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have talked offline with the other authors and Tom is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>holding the pen. Tom, do you think you can meet the time 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>frame below?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gonzalo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my mobile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ---- Alissa Cooper wrote ----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just wanted to see if this rev might get done in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next couple  of days. If so, we could get it on the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next telechat agenda (March 5).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alissa
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *From: *Alissa Cooper<alissa@cooperw.in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:alissa@cooperw.in>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject: **Re: [bfcpbis] AD evaluation:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis-12*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Date: *February 9, 2015 at 3:58:52 PM PST
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *To: *"Charles Eckel (eckelcu)"<eckelcu@cisco.com 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:eckelcu@cisco.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc: *"bfcpbis@ietf.org<mailto:bfcpbis@ietf.org>"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <bfcpbis@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:bfcpbis@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Charles,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, some responses inline.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 4, 2015, at 10:40 AM, Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <eckelcu@cisco.com<mailto:eckelcu@cisco.com>>   wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HI Alissa,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the review. Please see my thoughts on 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your comments and questions inline.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Alissa Cooper<alissa@cooperw.in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:alissa@cooperw.in>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 10:19 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "bfcpbis@ietf.org<mailto:bfcpbis@ietf.org>"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <bfcpbis@ietf.org<mailto:bfcpbis@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [bfcpbis] AD evaluation:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-bfcpbis-rfc4582bis-12
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have reviewed this draft in preparation for IETF LC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Overall the document appears in good shape. I have a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> few questions and comments I¹d like to discuss 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before issuing the IETF last call. I¹ve also 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> included some editorial nits that should be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> addressed together with any last call comments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Comments and questions:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section 5.1 =
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "If an endpoint receives a message with an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unsupported version field value, the receiving 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> server MUST send an Error message with parameter 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value 12 (Unsupported
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Version) to indicate this.²
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This seems a little misleading since RFC 4582 didn¹t 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>specify what to do upon receipt of a message with a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>version other than 1.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Implementations that do not get upgraded to be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>compliant with  4582bis (which could certainly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>account for some of those that  will not support 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>version 2) will therefore never send the  error specified here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This seems like it should at least be  noted given 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the MUST-level requirement. The same applies in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Section 13.7.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good point. I believe we made this a MUST because we 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were thinking in terms of implementations compliant 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with this bis version.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your suggested note about rfc 4582 implementations 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here and in  section 13.7 seems useful to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ok
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section 7 =
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "BFCP entities MUST support, at a minimum, the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TLS_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA ciphersuite [6].²
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I realize this requirement comes from RFC 4582, but 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I¹d like to understand why it has not been updated 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be consistent with more current guidance on 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cipher suite selection (e.g.,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-uta-tls-bcp-0
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> #
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> s
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> c
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -4)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How about we keep this minimum requirement, and add a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reference to draft-ietf-uta-tls-bcp along with a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recommendation to adhere to the best practices it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> outlines in section 4?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think MUST support TLS_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> backwards compatibility and SHOULD support the ones 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> listed in the UTA drafts would be ok.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Sections 8, 8.1, 8.2 = It seems like the  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>transaction ID requirements regarding  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>non-reuse/monotonically increasing IDs are re-stated  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>multiple times across these three sections, in  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>slightly different ways, to the point where it¹s not 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>clear exactly what they are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems like they are:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (1) Reliable transport, server-initiated transaction:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ID is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (2) Unreliable transport, server-initiated transaction:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ID MUST be monotonically increasing (except for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrap-around)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (3) Reliable transport, client-initiated transaction:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ID MUST NOT be 0 and MUST NOT be reused in another 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> message from the client until a response from the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> server is received for the transaction, but need not 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be monotonically increasing (e.g., a lower, recently 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used ID could be re-used once a response is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> received)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (4) Unreliable transport, client-initiated transaction:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ID MUST be monotonically increasing (except for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrap-around)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is (3) the correct interpretation of the text in 8.1?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, why not just require IDs in all 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>client-initiated transactions to be monotonically 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>increasing?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Agree we can and should simplify this. Sections 8.1 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8.2 cover the client behavior and server behavior in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> detail. As such, the transaction ID related 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information at the start of Section 8 is superfluous.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I recommend reducing the text in Section 8 to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> follow:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8. Protocol Transactions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In BFCP, there are two types of transactions:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> client-initiated transactions and server-initiated 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transactions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Client-initiated transactions consist of a request 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from a client to a floor control server and a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> response from the floor control server to the client.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Server-initiated transactions have different behavior 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> depending on underlying transport:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>      When using a reliable transport, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>server-initiated transactions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>      consist of a single message from a floor control 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>server to a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>      client (notifications).  They do not trigger any 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>response.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>      When using an unreliable transport, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>server-initiated transactions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>      consist of a request from a floor control server 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to a client and a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>      response from the client to the floor control 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>server.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When using BFCP over an unreliable transport, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> retransmission timer T1 (see Section 8.3) MUST be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used for all requests until the transaction is completed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then in section 8.1, we add the important details 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> removed from section 8.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8.1.1 Client Behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A client starting a client-initiated transaction MUST 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> set the Conference ID in the common header of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> message to the Conference ID for the conference that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the client obtained previously.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The client MUST set the Transaction ID value in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>common header to a number that is different from 0 and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that MUST NOT be reused in another message from the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>client until a response from the server is received 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for the transaction.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The client uses the Transaction ID value to match 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>this message with the response from the floor control server.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When using BFCP over an unreliable transport, it is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>important to choose a Transaction ID value that lets 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the receiver distinguish the reception of the next 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>message in a sequence of BFCP messages from a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>retransmission of a previous message.  Therefore, BFCP 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>entities using an unreliable transport MUST use 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>monotonically increasing Transaction ID values (except 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for wrap-around).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A client receiving a server-initiated transaction 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>over an unreliable transport MUST copy the Transaction 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ID from the request received from the server into the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>response.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [Question: is there a need to copy the Conference ID 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and  User ID, if present?]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8.2. Server Behavior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A floor control server sending a response within a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> client-initiated transaction MUST copy the Conference 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ID, the Transaction ID, and the User ID from the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> request received from the client into the response.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Server-initiated transactions MUST contain a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Transaction ID equal to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0 when BFCP is used over a reliable transport.  Over 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>an unreliable transport, the Transaction ID shall have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the same properties as for client-initiated transactions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The server uses the Transaction ID value to match this 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>message with the response from the floor participant 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>or floor chair.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, this is better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section 9 (impacts Section 14 as well) = "BFCP 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>clients  SHOULD authenticate the floor control server 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>before  sending any BFCP message to it or accepting 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>any BFCP message from it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Similarly, floor control servers SHOULD authenticate 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a client before accepting any BFCP message from it or 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sending any BFCP message to it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BFCP supports TLS/DTLS mutual authentication between 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>clients and floor control servers, as specified in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Section 9.1.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is the RECOMMENDED authentication mechanism in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>BFCP.²
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What are the cases where clients and servers do not 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>need  to be authenticating each other? I know this 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>requirement  and the other SHOULD-level requirements 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>around use of  TLS/DTLS are carried over from RFC 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>4582, but I¹m  concerned that they aren¹t as strong 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>as they should be.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For a conference where the signaling traffic is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>authenticated and confidentiality and integrity 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>protected, why is it ok for the floor control traffic 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not to be? Could these requirements be adjusted to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>require use of TLS/DTLS at least in cases where the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>signaling is also protected?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, but again, this would be at the expense of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adding a non backward compatible change from rfc 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4582. How about saying TLS/DTLS MUST be used for BFCP 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in such cases, while pointing out the rfc
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4582
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> based implementations may not comply (similar to what 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we did with the version field).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Works for me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Feel free to make all of these changes and submit a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rev and I¹ll issue the IETF LC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alissa
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section 14 =
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> See the point above about ciphersuites. ³Non-null 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> encryption² is not a sufficient minimum baseline, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and if the requirements change in Section 7 they 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should be reflected here as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yep.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Editorial nits to be resolved with LC comments:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section 5.1 =
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ³The version field MUST be set to 1 when using BFCP 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over a reliable transport, i.e. as in [2].²
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I find it a little odd to reference the spec you¹re 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>obsoleting in this sentence, especially since BFCP 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>over a reliable transport is completely specified in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>this bis document. I would suggest dropping the i.e.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>clause.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Good catch. This is a carry over from before this 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> draft was adopted as a bis version of rfc4582.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The version field MUST be set to 2 when using BFCP 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over an unreliable transport with the extensions 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specified in this document.²
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The bit about ³with the extensions specified in this 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> document² is extraneous and should be removed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "If an endpoint receives a message with an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unsupported version field value, the receiving 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> server MUST send an Error message with parameter 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> value 12 (Unsupported
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Version) to indicate this.²
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Use of the word ³server² here makes it sound as if 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>only servers could receive headers with unsupported 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>versions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Should this be ³the receiving endpoint²?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section 6.2.4 =
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "[23], Section 6.7 provides useful recommendations 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Š²
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The links in the references are not quite right.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section 8.3.2 =
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> s/when fires/when fired/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section 14 =
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> s/high-jack/hijack/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> = Section B.1 =
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "situation where multiple different and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-interoperable would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> co-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exist in the market.²
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a word missing after ³non-interoperable."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This should read ³non-interoperable implementations².
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Earlier in that same sentence, ³BFCP over UDP were 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>already used² should read ³BFCP over UDP is already 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>being used².
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Charles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bfcpbis mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bfcpbis@ietf.org<mailto:bfcpbis@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bfcpbis
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>       
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>        
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>         
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>          
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>           
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>          
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      
>>>>>    
>>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
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>>
>