Re: [Bgp-autoconf] Move forward with bgp autoconf requirements and design principle

Hi all,

I must admit that I seem to have lost track of what's going on - I got
distracted by $dayjob, and IDR @ IETF108 conflicted with mboned, but I
didn't see this on the agenda or minutes or a report in shares' WG
Status report.

I had thought that Randy's document
(https://git.rg.net/randy/draft-bgp-discovery-layers) provided a
really good summary of what *I* had thought we had decided. I've
looked at draft-dt-idr-bgp-autoconf-considerations, but found it much
harder to read, and, other than referencing other documents in 5.2.2,
5.2.3 I'm not sure what it adds...

So, can someone help me swap state back in? Where are we? It feels
like we've stalled...

I propose:
1: We go back to draft-bgp-discovery-layers as a starting point
2: Discuss what L3DL *doesn't* do[0], and, if there really is something
3: choose another option, discuss what it doesn't do, and repeat this
until we get somewhere...

Or, did the DT die and I just missed the email?
W

[0]: I'll note that I like L3DL - it's got a good security story, it
provides / can provide all of the info we need, it's simple, etc.

W

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:44 PM Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> As promised please find attached an updated version of the draft. I changed the draft title a little bit to better reflect the content and purpose. Thanks again to Randy for his effort on the initial version.
>
>
>
> The design principles are listed in section 4 for further discussion. Some description about the candidate approaches draft-xu and draft-raszuk are added. The rest are some editorial changes.
>
>
>
> Please review this document and provide your comments and suggestions, proposing text would be better. Note that the authorship and contributor of the design team document would be based on the contribution.
>
>
>
> Although it may be quite challenging to get the draft ready before the submission cut-off, depending on the progress we made, perhaps we could have an -00 version first, then have it further revised before the meeting.
>
>
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Jie
>
>
>
> From: 徐小虎(义先) [mailto:xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2020 9:47 AM
> To: Bgp-autoconf <bgp-autoconf-bounces@ietf.org>; Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>; Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>
> Cc: bgp-autoconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Bgp-autoconf] Move forward with bgp autoconf requirements and design principle
>
>
>
> +1
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From:Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
>
> Send Time:2020年7月9日(星期四) 02:02
>
> To:Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>; Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>
>
> Cc:bgp-autoconf@ietf.org <bgp-autoconf@ietf.org>
>
> Subject:Re: [Bgp-autoconf] Move forward with bgp autoconf requirements and design principle
>
>
>
> Jie,
>
> Sounds good, I don’t really see any convergence yet, so unbiased summary would be a great start
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff
>
> On Jul 8, 2020, 8:47 AM -0700, Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>, wrote:
> Hi Randy and all,
>
> It is good we agreed on the scope of this document is DC. Certainly in the design team we can analyze and discuss the difference between the design for DC and WAN, my understanding is the details about it does not belong to this document.
>
> Coming back to the preparation of the draft deliverable, in addition to revising the existing text in the draft, my suggestion is to also add some brief description about each candidate solution regarding the functions, extensibility, etc., this may be similar to what was presented in the slides to the WG in last IETF meeting. I will work on some text and provide an update tomorrow. Any contribution to this is welcome.
>
> As for the design principle (including which layer the protocol should be based on and the interaction with BGP), if we cannot reach agreement before the meeting, probably we could provide a summary of the considerations first, and ask for some feedbacks from the WG. Thoughts?
>
> Best regards,
> Jie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Randy Bush [mailto:randy@psg.com]
> Sent: Monday, July 6, 2020 11:53 PM
> To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
> Cc: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; bgp-autoconf@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Bgp-autoconf] Move forward with bgp autoconf requirements
> and design principle
>
> The draft in question specifically adds WAN auto conf.
>
> that was certainly not the intent; and it's not really there in the words.. on
> the other hand, if we should keep an eye on the WAN as we design the LAN,
> we should be aware of choices which might unnecessarily restriict ourselves
> next year.
>
> Then the L3 peer auto discovery is just deferred to
> draft-ietf-lsvr-l3dl
>
> also not intended. i did ask for your help stitching multicast in, and you
> declined. perhaps you have time now.
>
> However reading thorough draft-ietf-lsvr-l3dl it is clear that it is
> not applicable to WAN.
>
> it is not applicable to many things :)
>
> as i said at the beginning, i do not think l3dl is really a serious candidate here.
> otoh, we would be silly if we did not keep an eye to see if there are lessons to
> be learned from it.
>
> [ fwiw, i think the scalability added to lsoe to become l3dl was not
> worth the complexity. but that is a discussion for another universe ]
>
> randy
>
> --
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>
> --
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-- 
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
   ---maf