Re: [Bier] WG adoption call for draft-chen-bier-frr-02

"Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net> Tue, 16 March 2021 22:05 UTC

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From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
To: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
CC: "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>, Michael Menth <menth@uni-tuebingen.de>
Thread-Topic: [Bier] WG adoption call for draft-chen-bier-frr-02
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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 22:05:42 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/53hpQgEcmJsVrlh1h0XL8gdsIZM>
Subject: Re: [Bier] WG adoption call for draft-chen-bier-frr-02
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Hi Huaimo,

Please see zzh> below.

From: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 3:51 PM
To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>et>; Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Cc: bier@ietf.org; Michael Menth <menth@uni-tuebingen.de>
Subject: Re: [Bier] WG adoption call for draft-chen-bier-frr-02

[External Email. Be cautious of content]

Hi Jeffrey,

    My responses are inline below with prefix [HC].

Best Regards,
Huaimo
________________________________
From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net<mailto:zzhang@juniper.net>>
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 2:23 PM
To: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com<mailto:huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>>; Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com<mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com>>
Cc: bier@ietf.org<mailto:bier@ietf.org> <bier@ietf.org<mailto:bier@ietf.org>>; Michael Menth <menth@uni-tuebingen.de<mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de>>
Subject: RE: [Bier] WG adoption call for draft-chen-bier-frr-02


If you consider BIFT and unicast FIB, they are actually very similar (ignoring the SI/sub-domain and bier label aspects). The only differences are:



1.      (bfr-id % bitstringLength) or prefix as key

2.      F-BM associated with a BFR-nbr in BIFT



Each BIFT entry is built according how to reach a corresponding BFER, and the F-BM is obtained by setting the bits for all the BFERs that are reached by the BFR nbr.



[HC}: As you mentioned, there are two differences between BIFT and FIB. Are you going to combine the BIFT and FIB into one?

Zzh> No. I list the similarity just to show that BIFT can be arranged in a way similar to unicast FIB for both normal and FRR forwarding (I assume you don't have different unicast FIBs for normal and FRR forwarding - but I could be wrong).



So, however you do FRR for unicast (LFA or tunnel based link/node protection or whatever) and whether it is IGP or BGP or whatever, you can just build the BIER FRR forwarding state the same way, and update the F-BM for the backup nbr accordingly.



[HC]: There are different ways for BIER FRR such as two proposed in BIER WG. Even these two solutions are different in building their forwarding states. It seems not true as you said that you can just build the BIER FRR forwarding state the same way.

Zzh> My point is, if your unicast FIB entry includes some ECMP/primary/backup branches, you can do it the same way for BIER.

Zzh> draft-merlin takes that approach, thought it has unnecessary limitations:

Zzh> - it only has one primary and one backup entry, but one could have multiple ECMP/primary/backup branches, and one could even have a backup branch for each ECMP branch.

Zzh> - it only considers tunneling to the original downstream nbr or its downstream. Going through a complete different downstream neighbor could also be done, which your draft covers (though the multiple per-nbr FRR BIFT idea seems to be flawed).



Zzh> This goes back to my comments even about draft-merlin when it first came about - these are implementation details that an informational draft is more appropriate for.



That's why I keep saying that there is not much to standardize on BIER FRR. It seems that this topic keeps coming up, so perhaps I should write an information draft to elaborate the above principle and how it works with various protection mechanisms.



[HC]: Each solution seems have lots of details. There are lots of experiments that need to be done for each solution. I think that working out the details is useful and may benefit all.



Zzh> As informational draft, that's fine. But I don't think draft-chen is ready for adoption yet. I had also suggested last time to work with draft-merlin co-authors on a single document. I think that would be a better direction.



Zzh> Jeffrey



Jeffrey



From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Huaimo Chen
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 1:28 PM
To: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com<mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com>>
Cc: bier@ietf.org<mailto:bier@ietf.org>; Michael Menth <menth@uni-tuebingen.de<mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de>>
Subject: Re: [Bier] WG adoption call for draft-chen-bier-frr-02



[External Email. Be cautious of content]



Hi Tony,



    Even though there is IGP running in the network and the underlay IP FRR is provided, the BIER FRR seems still needed. All the BIER packets are forwarded using the BIFTs. They are not forwarded using the normal FIBs with IP FRR support.  When a failure happens in the network, the BIER packets will still be forwarded using the old BIFTs without considering the failure until the old BIFT is recomputed and updated based on the new network topology after the failure. During this period (from the time of the failure to the time at which the BIFTs are updated), the BIER packets may be lost.



Best Regards,

Huaimo

________________________________

From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com<mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 12:58 PM
To: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com<mailto:huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>>
Cc: Michael Menth <menth@uni-tuebingen.de<mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de>>; bier@ietf.org<mailto:bier@ietf.org> <bier@ietf.org<mailto:bier@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [Bier] WG adoption call for draft-chen-bier-frr-02



we need a framework here ;-)



when IGP calculates the underlying FRR it's always a better solution. Nothing is faster than IGP and anything calculated as "better FRR" or "backup FRR" will not have the topology to do a better job/faster than IGP can. So AFAIS the only real use case here is BIER without IGP signalling but correct me if I'm wrong



-- tony





On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 5:02 PM Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com<mailto:huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>> wrote:

Hi Michael,



    Thanks much for your valuable comments.

    My responses are inline below with prefix [HC].



Best Regards,

Huaimo

________________________________

From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Michael Menth <menth@uni-tuebingen.de<mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de>>
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 7:11 AM
To: bier@ietf.org<mailto:bier@ietf.org> <bier@ietf.org<mailto:bier@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [Bier] WG adoption call for draft-chen-bier-frr-02



Hi Tony, all,

Am 16.03.2021 um 11:08 schrieb Tony Przygienda:

> I think it's a good addition within the architecture for the case IGP is
> not used for signalling, e.g. when controller or static programming.

Right. The solution may make sense if the routing underlay does not
offer FRR capabilities.



[HC]: When the routing underlay supports IP FRR, the BIER should also

provide BIER FRR since the BIER packets are forwarded using the BIFTs.

When failures happen in the network, the BIER packets are still forwarded

using the old BIFTs until the old BIFTs are updated according to the

updated network topology after the failures.

>
> The draft must however explain in what scenarios it is used and quote
> the according IGP drafts to guarantee loop-free behavior (well, BIER
> will tie-break loops but we'll have 1x microloop & possibly not deliver
> payload if BIER FRR is not properly computed/intsalled). With that the
> draft should also pay attention to how the function is deployed/updated
> network-wide if IGP is not present

I agree. in the absence of an IGP, the "native BIER-FRR on bier layer"
must be set by a controller.



[HC]: I agree too.

So, below the line, an applicability statement would be helpful. What
are those cases?
- IGP running but without FRR on the routing underlay?
- No IGP and no FRR on the routing underlay?



[HC]: When IGP is running in the network, each BFR in the network calculates,

installs and/or updates its BIER FRR BIFTs. The BIER FRR in the draft is

independent of the underlay IP FRR.

When no IGP is running in the network, the BIER controller for the network

calculates, installs and/or updates the BIER FRR BIFTs into BFRs in the network,

regardless of whether the routing underlay FRR is provided.


However, if the controller takes care of BIER-FRR, what could be reasons
for missing FRR on the routing underlay? If there is a FRR on the
routing underlay (also provided through a controller), tunnel-based
bier-frr solves the problem in a transparent way.



[HC]: The BIER FRR in the draft is independent of the underlay IP FRR.

Regardless of whether the routing underlay FRR is provided, the

BIER FRR BIFTs are computed in the same way.

BTW, we studied protection variants for controller-based infrastructures
(for routing underlays, not for BIER). Challenge is to keep state low.
LFA-based solutions help a lot and outperform others. 100% protection is
possible with only little additions. Results are available:
https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https:%2F%2Fatlas.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de%2F~menth%2Fpapers%2FMenth20-Sub-6.pdf&amp;data=04%7C01%7Chuaimo.chen%40futurewei.com%7C5d3cb8163c7f4a1557e608d8e86c408f%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637514898966623524%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=03cc%2BIvdV%2BCg%2F0PCFulWzuCa0h4I5sBqn8K5QPT5BR8%3D&amp;reserved=0<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Fatlas.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de*2F*menth*2Fpapers*2FMenth20-Sub-6.pdf*26data*3D04*7C01*7Chuaimo.chen*40futurewei.com*7C2b86f5e805f04cf24c1008d8e89cdcd4*7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc*7C1*7C1*7C637515107733090092*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C1000*26sdata*3DCNKcultin43VrTAvr*2BFH7V1FrMALSvaSpfmEiHcKm*2Fg*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlfiUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!NEt6yMaO-gk!SBpWq7LIP13dlIX5P6U98cqIp8gTMP5_gelzA7rNyBrhf7h6mMn6N6YLFKhaK3F2*24&data=04*7C01*7Chuaimo.chen*40futurewei.com*7C505ee9888f544baadef708d8e8a895f1*7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc*7C1*7C1*7C637515158064306038*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C1000&sdata=X*2F7B8dJlmp3kRb1oZtUtPYfNpHmMZLAAXLYj1BEpeNQ*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUqKioqKiolJSoqKioqKioqKioqKiUlKioqJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!NEt6yMaO-gk!UDTr378Rj_mIkbaCftMfztSDP8oG_2JlT0Z-syDJQxM_6_5acBYblrYFc-BTCNJ3$> (under
revision)



[HC]: Thanks much for your information.


Regards,

Michael

>
> thanks
>
> -- tony
>
> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 7:41 AM <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn<mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
> <mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>> wrote:
>
>     A 2-week WG adoption call begins for the following draft:
>
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>
>     Please indicate your support or objection by March 30th, 2021.
>
>     Authors, please respond to the list indicating whether you are aware
>     of any IPR that applies to this draft.
>
>     Thanks,
>
>     Sandy (As WG secretary, on behalf of Greg/Tony)
>
>
>
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>

--
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
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Juniper Business Use Only


Juniper Business Use Only


Juniper Business Use Only