Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bierin6
Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> Mon, 08 March 2021 15:31 UTC
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From: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2021 07:32:04 -0800
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Subject: Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bierin6
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Apparently my email filters are less than perfect. Stig pointed out that he voted on March 4th but his vote wasn't in the tally. I confirmed receipt of his vote and have updated the count as below. Will the authors please update the draft name w/ the WG convention and Charis will accept. Thanks. Name Yes No gjshep@gmail.com x tonysietf@gmail.com x zzhang@juniper.net x zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn x hayabusagsm@gmail.com x hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com x michael.mcbride@futurewei.com x xiejingrong@huawei.com x adrian@olddog.co.uk x hayabusagsm@gmail.com x ice@braindump.be x mankamis@cisco.com x gregimirsky@gmail.com x qinzhuangzhuang@chinaunicom.cn x zhuyq8@chinatelecom.cn x xiao.min2@zte.com.cn x zhangzhe22@huawei.com x xiong.quan@zte.com.cn x gengxuesong@huawei.com x peng.shaofu@zte.com.cn x stig@venaas.com x --------------------------------------------------- TOTAL: 13 8 Thanks, Shep (Chairs) On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 8:39 AM Greg Shepherd <gj shep@gmail.com> wrote: > Thank you to all the authors, participants in the discussion contributing > technical arguments, and to everyone who commented and voted. Special > thanks to Jeffrey for keeping the technical discussions honest and > productive. > > The call to adopt has passed. Comments to the list regarding the vote, > this draft and others below. The votes are as follows: > > Name Yes No > gjshep@gmail.com x > tonysietf@gmail.com x > zzhang@juniper.net x > zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn x > hayabusagsm@gmail.com x > hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com x > michael.mcbride@futurewei.com x > xiejingrong@huawei.com x > adrian@olddog.co.uk x > hayabusagsm@gmail.com x > ice@braindump.be x > mankamis@cisco.com x > gregimirsky@gmail.com x > qinzhuangzhuang@chinaunicom.cn x > zhuyq8@chinatelecom.cn x > xiao.min2@zte.com.cn x > zhangzhe22@huawei.com x > xiong.quan@zte.com.cn x > gengxuesong@huawei.com x > peng.shaofu@zte.com.cn x > --------------------------------------------------- > TOTAL: 12 8 > > This work is supported under the BIER WG charter: > > <> > 7) BIER in IPv6 : A mechanism to use BIER natively in IPv6 may be > standardized if coordinated with the 6MAN WG and with understood > applicability. > </> > > The call for adoption of draft-zhang-bier-bierin6 drew another round of > comments and comparisons to draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation, so I will > address the comments and comparisons here. > > *Technical Summary* > > Summary of BIERin6: > > > > - Existing generic BIER-non-MPLS solution – BIER packets transported > over L2 links or any tunnels (including IPv6 tunnels) between two BFRs. > - IPv6 tunnels for BIER transport is typically multi-hop, either for > getting over BIER incapable routers or for FRR purposes. > - One-hop IPv6 tunnels can be optionally used between directly > connected BFRs if L2 cannot indicate next header is BIER (either due to > lack of code points or because existing hw cannot handle a new code point) > - Clean layered, standards-based, generic architecture: BIER payload, > BIER, and BIER transport are completely independent. > - BIER layer does not care what transport is used. BIER packets are > payloads of L2 or tunnels (e.g. IPv6 “next header” is BIER). > - BIER layer does not care what payload it is carrying > - Supports all requirements w/o any new procedures: > - BIER is L2.5, like MPLS, and has no fragmentation requirement as > part of the BIER architecture. Network fragmentation of UDP packets is not > recommended. > - RFC8085 UDP Usage Guidelines, Section 3.2 - "..an application > SHOULD NOT send UDP datagrams that result in IP packets that > exceed the Maximum Transmission Unit (MTU) along the path to the > destination. Consequently, an application SHOULD either use the > path MTU information provided by the IP layer or implement Path > MTU Discovery (PMTUD) itself [RFC1191][RFC1981] [RFC4821] to > determine whether the path to a destination will support its > desired message size without fragmentation." > - Optional fragmentation/ESP between BFIR/BFER, if needed, can > be achieved by first imposing IPv6 header for fragmentation/ESP and then > imposing BIER header. > > - SRv6 based services over BIER can be achieved by imposing a BIER > header after imposing IPv6 header used for SRv6 service. > - In both cases, IPv6 (for the purpose of > fragmentation/ESP/service) is treated as BIER payload, but that is > different from the IPv6 used for tunneling between BFRs. > - Reason for standardization > - Need code point for BIER as “IPv6 next header” (for IPv6 > tunneling). The same code point is also “IP Protocol” if IPv4 tunneling is > used in an IPv4 non-MPLS network. > - Given the long-time debate on BIERin6 vs. BIERv6, it is critical > to have a standard RFC to document this generic BIER-non-MPLS solution for > IPv6 networks. > > > > Summary of BIERv6: > > > > - BIER and IPv6 tightly coupled for BIER/lower layer: > - BIER header as option in IPv6 DOH > - IPv6 encapsulation from BFIR to BFER. IPv6 is used even between > directly connected BFRs > - Service over BIER tightly coupled with SRv6 (protocol/layer > dependency) > - But with different SRv6 behavior – Source address instead of DA > is used on BFER for service delimiting, which has its own complications > > > > *Conclusion:*A cleanly layered, standards-based, generic solution > (draft-zhang-bier-bierin6) vs. a solution that creates a BIER > protocol dependency with IPv6/SRv6 but with changes in SRv6 service > handling (draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation) > > *Some additional comments about the drafts, the WG process, and the impact > to the existing BIER Standards-Track(ST) Architecture:* > > From rev0 of draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation, it was explained to the > authors that the encoding and encapsulation are completely separate tools > and need to be addressed as such. There are numerous IETF ST > encapsulation tools available, and any proposed new encapsulation will > require justification - ie, some use-case that cannot be solved any other > way, or some unique value offered by a new proposal. No unique use-case has > been adequately described. It has been pointed out countless times that > the name of the draft is misleading and should be changed to more > accurately describe/represent the intent of the draft, ie - encoding. > Despite numerous requests, the name has remained, and the text of the draft > continues to obfuscate the distinction: > > draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation, 1, Introduction: > > This document proposes a BIER IPv6 *encapsulation* for Non-MPLS IPv6 > Networks, defining a method to carry the standard Non-MPLS BIER > header (as defined in [RFC8296]) in the native IPv6 header. A new > IPv6 Option type - BIER Option is defined to *encode* the standard Non- > MPLS BIER header and this newly defined BIER Option is carried under > the Destination Options header of the native IPv6 Header [RFC8200]. > > After rev 1 or 2 it may be assumed there is some remaining confusion, > miscommunication, or misunderstanding. But after rev10 without the authors > addressing the issue, it can only be concluded that the obfuscation is > intentional, and the authors are unwilling to listen to technical feedback > from the WG. > > The BIER WG began as experimental because the work required fundamental > changes to the Internet architecture by defining a new forwarding plane, > which includes a BIER encoding header and associated BIER architecture. > This encoding has now been adopted as ST. Any additional encoding methods > would only serve to errode the standards work of the BIER WG and > potentially undo the past 8 years of work. This high bar that was set by > the IAB and our AD (Alia Atlas), at the time. The bar will not be > lowered. An encapsulation method as described in draft-zhang-bier-bierin6 > is in no way experimental in that it uses the ST BIER encoding and existing > methods and registries. > > Any new encoding and/or forwarding plane must face the same level of > scrutiny. To date, the authors of draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation have > failed to offer any compelling, unique use-case where a new encoding is > required. As a further complication, the proposal creates a dependency > between SRv6 and BIER. Protocol dependencies have come and gone in the > IETF, and in every case I've found, they have proven to be crippling at > best, if not outright monumental failures. Any proposal which requires > changes to the forwarding plane, protocol dependencies, and potential > erosion of the BIER Architecture and established ST work has an even higher > bar to clear. The authors to date, have shown no intention to address these > concerns with clear technical reasoning. > > - Shep > (Chairs) > > On Thu, Feb 25, 2021 at 8:37 AM Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Thank you all for the active discussion that brought us to consensus. >> This draft now addresses all of the points of discussion for the solution. >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zhang-bier-bierin6/ >> >> Please reply to this thread with your support/opposition of WG adoption >> of the draft. >> >> Thanks, >> Shep >> (Chairs) >> >
- [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bierin6 Greg Shepherd
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… zhang.zheng
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Michael McBride
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Xiejingrong (Jingrong)
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… IJsbrand Wijnands
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Zhuangzhuang Qin(联通北京市北京市分 公司)
- [Bier] 回复: Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… zhuyq8
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… xiao.min2
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… duanfanghong
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… zhangzhe (M)
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… zhang.zheng
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… zhang.zheng
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… duanfanghong
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… xiong.quan
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… duanfanghong
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… zhangzhe (M)
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… duanfanghong
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Stig Venaas
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… zhangzhe (M)
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… peng.shaofu
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… duanfanghong
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Rishabh Parekh (riparekh)
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Greg Shepherd
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Greg Shepherd
- Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bi… Michael McBride