Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bierin6

Michael McBride <michael.mcbride@futurewei.com> Mon, 08 March 2021 16:34 UTC

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From: Michael McBride <michael.mcbride@futurewei.com>
To: "gjshep@gmail.com" <gjshep@gmail.com>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bierin6
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Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 16:34:30 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/BxTMUw7JMxB9ns3Nj8q2aDk8r1s>
Subject: Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bierin6
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We don't vote in the ietf. Chairs have the right to determine consensus as they see fit. And that can be appealed.

It's very unfortunate the bier wg didn't follow the excellent advice Ron Bonica gave this morning to spring wrt to compression solutions "If we let all proposals progress, we can let the marketplace decide. After all, the operators know what they want." Indeed.

mike

From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Greg Shepherd
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2021 7:32 AM
To: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Bier] Call For Adoption: draft-zhang-bier-bierin6

Apparently my email filters are less than perfect. Stig pointed out that he voted on March 4th but his vote wasn't in the tally. I confirmed receipt of his vote and have updated the count as below. Will the authors please update the draft name w/ the WG convention and Charis will accept. Thanks.

Name
Yes
No
gjshep@gmail.com<mailto:gjshep@gmail.com>
x
tonysietf@gmail.com<mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com>
x
zzhang@juniper.net<mailto:zzhang@juniper.net>
x
zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn<mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
x
hayabusagsm@gmail.com<mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
x
hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com<mailto:hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com>
x
michael.mcbride@futurewei.com<mailto:michael.mcbride@futurewei.com>
x
xiejingrong@huawei.com<mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com>
x
adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>
x
hayabusagsm@gmail.com<mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
x
ice@braindump.be<mailto:ice@braindump.be>
x
mankamis@cisco.com<mailto:mankamis@cisco.com>
x
gregimirsky@gmail.com<mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>
x
qinzhuangzhuang@chinaunicom.cn<mailto:qinzhuangzhuang@chinaunicom.cn>
x
zhuyq8@chinatelecom.cn<mailto:zhuyq8@chinatelecom.cn>
x
xiao.min2@zte.com.cn<mailto:xiao.min2@zte.com.cn>
x
zhangzhe22@huawei.com<mailto:zhangzhe22@huawei.com>
x
xiong.quan@zte.com.cn<mailto:xiong.quan@zte.com.cn>
x
gengxuesong@huawei.com<mailto:gengxuesong@huawei.com>
x
peng.shaofu@zte.com.cn<mailto:peng.shaofu@zte.com.cn>
x
stig@venaas.com<mailto:stig@venaas.com>
x
---------------------------------------------------
TOTAL:
13
8

Thanks,
Shep
(Chairs)

On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 8:39 AM Greg Shepherd <gj
shep@gmail.com<mailto:shep@gmail.com>> wrote:
Thank you to all the authors, participants in the discussion contributing technical arguments, and to everyone who commented and voted. Special thanks to Jeffrey for keeping the technical discussions honest and productive.

The call to adopt has passed. Comments to the list regarding the vote, this draft and others below. The votes are as follows:

Name
Yes
No
gjshep@gmail.com<mailto:gjshep@gmail.com>
x
tonysietf@gmail.com<mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com>
x
zzhang@juniper.net<mailto:zzhang@juniper.net>
x
zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn<mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
x
hayabusagsm@gmail.com<mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
x
hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com<mailto:hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com>
x
michael.mcbride@futurewei.com<mailto:michael.mcbride@futurewei.com>
x
xiejingrong@huawei.com<mailto:xiejingrong@huawei.com>
x
adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>
x
hayabusagsm@gmail.com<mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
x
ice@braindump.be<mailto:ice@braindump.be>
x
mankamis@cisco.com<mailto:mankamis@cisco.com>
x
gregimirsky@gmail.com<mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>
x
qinzhuangzhuang@chinaunicom.cn<mailto:qinzhuangzhuang@chinaunicom.cn>
x
zhuyq8@chinatelecom.cn<mailto:zhuyq8@chinatelecom.cn>
x
xiao.min2@zte.com.cn<mailto:xiao.min2@zte.com.cn>
x
zhangzhe22@huawei.com<mailto:zhangzhe22@huawei.com>
x
xiong.quan@zte.com.cn<mailto:xiong.quan@zte.com.cn>
x
gengxuesong@huawei.com<mailto:gengxuesong@huawei.com>
x
peng.shaofu@zte.com.cn<mailto:peng.shaofu@zte.com.cn>
x
---------------------------------------------------
TOTAL:
12
8

This work is supported under the BIER WG charter:

<>
7) BIER in IPv6 : A mechanism to use BIER natively in IPv6 may be
standardized if coordinated with the 6MAN WG and with understood
applicability.
</>

The call for adoption of draft-zhang-bier-bierin6 drew another round of comments and comparisons to draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation, so I will address the comments and comparisons here.

Technical Summary
Summary of BIERin6:

*        Existing generic BIER-non-MPLS solution - BIER packets transported over L2 links or any tunnels (including IPv6 tunnels) between two BFRs.
*        IPv6 tunnels for BIER transport is typically multi-hop, either for getting over BIER incapable routers or for FRR purposes.
*        One-hop IPv6 tunnels can be optionally used between directly connected BFRs if L2 cannot indicate next header is BIER (either due to lack of code points or because existing hw cannot handle a new code point)
*        Clean layered, standards-based, generic architecture: BIER payload, BIER, and BIER transport are completely independent.
o   BIER layer does not care what transport is used. BIER packets are payloads of L2 or tunnels (e.g. IPv6 "next header" is BIER).
o   BIER layer does not care what payload it is carrying
*        Supports all requirements w/o any new procedures:
o   BIER is L2.5, like MPLS, and has no fragmentation requirement as part of the BIER architecture. Network fragmentation of UDP packets is not recommended.
*        RFC8085 UDP Usage Guidelines, Section 3.2 - "..an application SHOULD NOT send UDP datagrams that result in IP packets that exceed the Maximum Transmission Unit (MTU) along the path to the destination.  Consequently, an application SHOULD either use the path MTU information provided by the IP layer or implement Path MTU Discovery (PMTUD) itself [RFC1191][RFC1981] [RFC4821] to determine whether the path to a destination will support its desired message size without fragmentation."
*        Optional fragmentation/ESP between BFIR/BFER, if needed, can be achieved by first imposing IPv6 header for fragmentation/ESP and then imposing BIER header.

o   SRv6 based services over BIER can be achieved by imposing a BIER header after imposing IPv6 header used for SRv6 service.
o   In both cases, IPv6 (for the purpose of fragmentation/ESP/service) is treated as BIER payload, but that is different from the IPv6 used for tunneling between BFRs.
*        Reason for standardization
o   Need code point for BIER as "IPv6 next header" (for IPv6 tunneling). The same code point is also "IP Protocol" if IPv4 tunneling is used in an IPv4 non-MPLS network.
o   Given the long-time debate on BIERin6 vs. BIERv6, it is critical to have a standard RFC to document this generic BIER-non-MPLS solution for IPv6 networks.

Summary of BIERv6:

*        BIER and IPv6 tightly coupled for BIER/lower layer:
o   BIER header as option in IPv6 DOH
o   IPv6 encapsulation from BFIR to BFER. IPv6 is used even between directly connected BFRs
*        Service over BIER tightly coupled with SRv6 (protocol/layer dependency)
o   But with different SRv6 behavior - Source address instead of DA is used on BFER for service delimiting, which has its own complications

Conclusion:A cleanly layered, standards-based, generic solution (draft-zhang-bier-bierin6) vs. a solution that creates a BIER protocol dependency with IPv6/SRv6 but with changes in SRv6 service handling (draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation)

Some additional comments about the drafts, the WG process, and the impact to the existing BIER Standards-Track(ST) Architecture:

>From rev0 of draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation, it was explained to the authors that the encoding and encapsulation are completely separate tools and need to be addressed as such. There are numerous IETF ST encapsulation tools available, and any proposed new encapsulation will require justification - ie, some use-case that cannot be solved any other way, or some unique value offered by a new proposal. No unique use-case has been adequately described.  It has been pointed out countless times that the name of the draft is misleading and should be changed to more accurately describe/represent the intent of the draft, ie - encoding. Despite numerous requests, the name has remained, and the text of the draft continues to obfuscate the distinction:

draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation, 1, Introduction:

This document proposes a BIER IPv6 encapsulation for Non-MPLS IPv6

   Networks, defining a method to carry the standard Non-MPLS BIER

   header (as defined in [RFC8296]) in the native IPv6 header.  A new

   IPv6 Option type - BIER Option is defined to encode the standard Non-

   MPLS BIER header and this newly defined BIER Option is carried under

   the Destination Options header of the native IPv6 Header [RFC8200].
After rev 1 or 2 it may be assumed there is some remaining confusion, miscommunication, or misunderstanding. But after rev10 without the authors addressing the issue, it can only be concluded that the obfuscation is intentional, and the authors are unwilling to listen to technical feedback from the WG.

The BIER WG began as experimental because the work required fundamental changes to the Internet architecture by defining a new forwarding plane, which includes a BIER encoding header and associated BIER architecture. This encoding has now been adopted as ST. Any additional encoding methods would only serve to errode the standards work of the BIER WG and potentially undo the past 8 years of work. This high bar that was set by the IAB and our AD (Alia Atlas), at the time. The bar will not be lowered. An encapsulation method as described in draft-zhang-bier-bierin6 is in no way experimental in that it uses the ST BIER encoding and existing methods and registries.

Any new encoding and/or forwarding plane must face the same level of scrutiny. To date, the authors of draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation have failed to offer any compelling, unique use-case where a new encoding is required. As a further complication, the proposal creates a dependency between SRv6 and BIER. Protocol dependencies have come and gone in the IETF, and in every case I've found, they have proven to be crippling at best, if not outright monumental failures. Any proposal which requires changes to the forwarding plane, protocol dependencies, and potential erosion of the BIER Architecture and established ST work has an even higher bar to clear. The authors to date, have shown no intention to address these concerns with clear technical reasoning.

- Shep
(Chairs)

On Thu, Feb 25, 2021 at 8:37 AM Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com<mailto:gjshep@gmail.com>> wrote:
Thank you all for the active discussion that brought us to consensus. This draft now addresses all of the points of discussion for the solution.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zhang-bier-bierin6/<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-zhang-bier-bierin6%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmichael.mcbride%40futurewei.com%7C9dc520b7947c490dbd0508d8e2474645%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637508143049443350%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=GYLZGyJ%2BpDDDPqa%2FfvEN7cu7%2BlGrsdqBk4MK3mEQaJk%3D&reserved=0>

Please reply to this thread with your support/opposition of WG adoption of the draft.

Thanks,
Shep
(Chairs)