Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy the requirements? //RE: draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-09
Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> Wed, 25 November 2020 15:40 UTC
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From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 10:39:57 -0500
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To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy the requirements? //RE: draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-09
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On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 10:29 AM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> wrote: > > Please see Gyan2> > > On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 8:56 AM Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang < > zzhang@juniper.net> wrote: > >> Please see zzh> below. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2020 10:27 PM >> To: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>; Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang < >> zzhang@juniper.net> >> Cc: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org> >> Subject: What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy the requirements? //RE: >> draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-09 >> >> [External Email. Be cautious of content] >> >> >> (to make clean, raise a new topic) >> >> I am confused too by the claiming a solution can do everything and it is >> an "existing" solution, while requesting allocation of IPv6 Next Header / >> IPv4 Protocol value which is non-trivial. >> >> Zzh> Comparing requesting a "next header" value for BIER, and specifying >> an IPv6 DOH to encode BIER and standardizing draft-xie-bier-ipv6-mvpn, >> which is more trivial? > > > Gyan2> BIERv6 follows RFC 8200 specification in using DOH to encode > BIER for hop by hop en route processing. MPLS BIER has an RFC 8556 for > MVPN even though it follows standard MVPN procedures RFC 6513 6514. Non > MPLS BIER is not any different in that respect but also requires as in IPv6 > environment uses SRv6 BGP Overlay Service. I think BIERin6 would require a > draft as well for the optional IPv6 encapsulation for SRv6 environment as > well. > >> >> Zzh> I want to point out that w/o draft-xie-bier-ipv6-mvpn, BIERv6 is not >> complete. > > > Gyan> In fact MVPN we all agreed is not a requirement as BIER can be > used for single tenant global table multicast GTM as well. > >> >> >> We need to know, what does *the* BIERin6 draft propose, and how does >> *the* BIERin6 draft satisfy the bier-ipv6-requirements. > > Take req-1 as an example, suppose there are PPP-over-SONET(POS, RFC2615) >> links in an IPv6 network, can the existing RFC8296 solve ? What does *the* >> BIERin6 draft propose to solve ? >> >> Zzh> How does IP work with POS? PPP header has a proto field - a new code >> point would be assigned for BIER. That is not IPv6 specific. > > > Gyan2> Jingrong’s point is that when BFRs do not use L2 Ethernet > “already defined solution” in RFC 8296, is when BIERin6 should be used is > which defined IPv6 encapsulation one hop tunnels. The MAJOR problem we have > with including an existing solution RFC 8296 L2 “Non MPLS BIER Ethernet” is > that it is existing and thus overshadows a need for for IPv6 encapsulation > and to use existing solution and as written in BIERin6 that IPv6 > encapsulation is “optional”. Why should IPv6 encapsulation be optional > with BIERin6? The latter L2 solution has existed since Day 1. We are > defining a new solution for IPv6 environment with BIERin6. The case and > point here is that most operators in the last 15 years have decommissioned > all TDM based with Metro Ethernet services. So in essence with draft > BIERin6 the way it is written IPv6 encapsulation single hop or multi hop > tunnels would never be used by operators. > So then you might as well remove IPv6 encapsulation from the draft as it’s > an option that would never be used. Once you do that you are left with RFC > 8296 use case informational draft and questionable if that is even > necessary. > > The way BIERin6 is written today it would be very difficult to advance for > WG adoption. > >> >> >> Please note in my question the word *the* does not include anything that >> RFC8296 can solve. Any existing RFC8296 solution is not belonging to *the* >> BIERin6 proposal. Please tell us *the* BIERin6 proposal. >> >> Zzh> *The* BIERin6 proposal is BIER over L2 and/or tunnels (IPv6 or not). >> In case of IPv6 tunnels, new code points are needed and that's why it needs >> to be on standards track, as I already explained. > > > Gyan> The way it’s written IPv6 encapsulation one hop tunnels would > never be used by operators as it’s overshadowed by RFC 8296. The way > BIERin6 reads it as L2 RFC 8296 can be used for multi hop funnels in case > of Non BFRs as well. Even if the operator requires BIER to be carried in > IPv6 it would be doubtful that would get utilized for one hop tunnels as > it’s easier to just use RFC 8296 L2 for one hop or tunnel. In essence the > IPV6 encapsulation would never be used by operators with BIERin6. > If you think about it BIERIn6 is by definition an oxymoron. Reason being > is that with RFC 8296 included as part of BIERin6, BIER header is the outer > envelope encapsulation so it would be more accurate to say “BIERout6” as > IPv6 is the payload of BIER in L2 RFC 8296. The only relevant piece that > makes sense in every way to be part of BIERin6 is “in” being the keyword > where the outer encapsulation is IPv6 and BIER is next header thus the “in” > in BIERin6. > >> >> Zzh> I had also explained already, why BIERin6 needs to explicitly spell >> out using *existing* solution (concept, not code point) for IPv6 network - >> we've wasted two years on this. > > > Gyan> Well hopefully we don’t waste another 2 year on BIERin6 or I > guess really should be called BIER-in-out-6. > Gyan2> Another clever way to look at is that BIER-in-out-6 is a way to squash IPv6 encapsulation with smoke and mirrors as if a there is in a pretentious way a néw solution is being developed, where in essence we are actually quite the contrary, as this is the trickery game “optional” verbiage to provide a lead on “carrot” if you will that IPv6 encapsulation is in the spec but really in all truthfulness let it be told the spec is really BIERout6. > > I am not in favor of adoption of BIERin6 the way the draft is written > today. We really have to remove the references to RFC 8296 to make this > draft even viable. > >> >> >> Thanks >> Jingrong >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Gyan Mishra [mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2020 9:34 AM >> To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net> >> Cc: Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>; BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>; >> EXT-zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>; Tony Przygienda < >> tonysietf@gmail.com>; draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements < >> draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements@ietf.org>; gjshep@gmail.com >> Subject: Re: draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements-09 >> >> Jeffrey >> >> About the two lingering points it does shed light on something that has >> been disturbing me with the BIERin6 solution. >> >> >> I thought about this some more and I think what creates a lot of >> confusion in my mind with BIERin6 solution is the L2/tunnel component. >> >> As the main reason is that the L2/tunnel exists today with RFC 8296 “Non >> MPLS BIER Ethernet” with the special allocated next header code point to >> account for BIER next header 0xAB37. >> >> I honestly think the L2 should be removed from the BIERin6 draft so that >> the optional IPV6 encapsulation is no longer “optional” in the draft as >> that now is the draft. >> >> This also provides the “IPv6 encapsulation” commonality with BIERv6 at >> least showing clearly that their is a strive for commonality and parity >> between the two solutions. >> >> Also the “muddying” of the water is eliminated by removing L2 making the >> solution crystal clear to operators. >> >> >> Kind Regards >> >> Gyan >> >> >> Juniper Business Use Only >> > -- > > <http://www.verizon.com/> > > *Gyan Mishra* > > *Network Solutions A**rchitect * > > > > *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD > > -- <http://www.verizon.com/> *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD
- [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy the r… Xiejingrong (Jingrong)
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Greg Shepherd
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Tianran Zhou
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Xiejingrong (Jingrong)
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Greg Shepherd
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Tianran Zhou
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Xiejingrong (Jingrong)
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Tianran Zhou
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Xiejingrong (Jingrong)
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Tianran Zhou
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Xiejingrong (Jingrong)
- Re: [Bier] What does BIERin6 propose to satisfy t… Tianran Zhou