Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-signaling
"Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net> Mon, 28 January 2019 00:05 UTC
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From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
To: "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" <hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com>, "IJsbrand Wijnands (iwijnand)" <iwijnand@cisco.com>
CC: "Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)" <mankamis@cisco.com>, "gjshep@gmail.com" <gjshep@gmail.com>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-signaling
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/CGXU3aWXWLpIDfs_exnfqV1W304>
Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-signaling
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Hi Hooman, > -----Original Message----- > From: Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) > [mailto:hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com] > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2019 4:08 PM > To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>; IJsbrand Wijnands > (iwijnand) <iwijnand@cisco.com> > Cc: Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) <mankamis@cisco.com>; > gjshep@gmail.com; BIER WG <bier@ietf.org> > Subject: RE: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-signaling > > Just to be clear so the suggestion here is > > 1. we will go forward with a SDN general solution An SDN solution makes sense if targeted mLDP or BGP-MVPN does not work for some customer. If you develop the SDN approach, would be good to generalize it. > 2. RFC 7060 for non SDN mLDP only solution (by the way Jeffrey I thought > you said we don't need a draft for 7060 and BIER stitching, i.e. pim-signaling > will cover this also? ) Not sure why you mention pim-signaling above. It's not related. Jeffrey > > Correct? > > Regards > > Hooman > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net> > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2019 1:33 PM > To: IJsbrand Wijnands (iwijnand) <iwijnand@cisco.com> > Cc: Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com>; > Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) <mankamis@cisco.com>; gjshep@gmail.com; > BIER WG <bier@ietf.org> > Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-signaling > > And that mLDP control plane is not hop by hop through the core. It hops over > the entire core. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jan 26, 2019, at 5:40 AM, IJsbrand Wijnands (iwijnand) > <iwijnand@cisco.com> wrote: > > > > Hi Hooman, > > > >> We are gone have fully mesh TLDP between EBBRs and IBBRs, the > dataplane on most if not all BIER routers will support MPLS anyway. > >> > >> If the network already supports and implemented mLDP then what is the > incentive to go to TLDP, one would keep mLDP P2MP tunnels in parallel with > BIER and be done with. > > > > There is a big difference between running mLDP as the data-plane vs. tLDP > as the control-plane. tLDP is just a TCP session to carry the Label Mappings > across. And the EBBR and IBBR’s have already a LDP process running in order > to border between BIER and mLDP. So a provider is not adding any new > control—plane, just re-using what is already there. To me that makes a lot of > sense. > > > > Thx, > > > > Ice. > > > >> > >> > >> I am open with BGP signaling that said I am not sure if I understand the > MVPN comment? As in segmented tunnels? > >> > >> > >> > >> Regards > >> > >> > >> > >> Hooman > >> > >> > >> > >> Send from mobile > >> > >> > >> > >> From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net> > >> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2019 8:24 PM > >> To: Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) > >> Cc: Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa); gjshep@gmail.com; BIER WG > >> Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-signaling > >> > >> > >> > >> I would say that this draft could be for controller based option. > >> > >> > >> > >> One can still use RFC7060/MVPN/GTM+BIER, with just a little bit > clarification on BIER specifics: > >> > >> > >> > >> - For RFC7060 method, specify BIER parameters for base tunnel as an > “interface”. > >> > >> - For MVPN/GTM method, point out that the procedure in draft-ietf-bier- > mvpn applies to mLDP case as well, with GTM or MVPN. Need to exam if GTM > needs a bit more work. > >> > >> > >> > >> I can start a short draft to include the above two options. I think the > controller option should be in its own draft because a lot of new details need > to spelled out, and in theory that could be generalized. > >> > >> > >> > >> Jeffrey > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >> > >> On Jan 25, 2019, at 7:40 PM, Mankamana Mishra (mankamis) > <mankamis@cisco.com> wrote: > >> > >> Does it mean we making / concluding solution which MUST have controller ? > >> > >> Sent from my iPad > >> > >> > >> On Jan 25, 2019, at 1:04 PM, Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net> > wrote: > >> > >> That looks better … > >> > >> > >> > >> What are the “label, label-action, BGP PTA opaque” in #2 for? > >> > >> In #5, PCE only needs to tell EBBR the label and list of IBBRs, and tell IBBRs > the label and the EBBR. > >> > >> Oh, who determines what subdomain to use? Should it be the PCE? > Perhaps add subdomain to the above line. > >> > >> > >> > >> BTW in concept this is no different from BGP-MVPN method (except the > label assignment and EBBR determination) 😊 > >> > >> • You have a session between the controller and every border router > (PCEP vs. BGP) > >> • You have to encode the FEC/label and signal to every EBBR/IBBR (PCEP > vs. BGP) > >> > >> > >> It does have the SDN halo ... I’m good with that 😊 > >> > >> > >> > >> Now will you be tempted to consider the following? > >> > >> > >> > >> • Can I use this for (s,g)/(*,g) traffic, whether in a VPN or in the global > table? > >> • Can I use this for other tunnel types? > >> > >> > >> After all, the infrastructure you build for mLDP over BIER equally applies to > the above two additional scenarios. > >> > >> Then, do we make it generic? If yes, where do we do it 😊 > >> > >> > >> > >> Jeffrey > >> > >> > >> > >> From: Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) > [mailto:hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com] > >> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2019 3:41 PM > >> To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>; gjshep@gmail.com; > BIER WG <bier@ietf.org> > >> Subject: RE: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-signaling > >> > >> > >> > >> Ok lets converge to the controller solution then… > >> > >> > >> > >> As of now the controller solution was written that all the PCUpd is done via > the EBBR (BFIR) I will change the solution so that the PCUpd is done on IBBR > (BFER) > >> > >> > >> > >> 1. the IBBR will determined that the source of the FEC is over BIER domain. > >> > >> 2. IBBR will send PCUpd to the PCE with source-ip, label, label-action, BGP > PTA opaque etc… > >> > >> 3. PCE will assign a BIER domain label for stitching to this P2MP LSP (mLDP) > >> > >> 4. PCE will determine the EBBR base on the information provided by IBBR > >> > >> 5. PCE will update the EBBR with NHLFE (stitch LDP to BIER domain label) > information and IBBR with NHLFE (stitch BIER domain label to LDP) > information > >> > >> 6. as IBBRs come online for that specific P2MP LSP (i.e. that specific source > and opaque) the PCE will update the EBBR with list of IBBRs so the EBBR can > build its beir header accordingly > >> > >> 7 traffic will arrive from ldp domain to BFIR swap labels from LDP to BIER > domain label. In addition push bier header forward to BFERs > >> > >> Etc… > >> > >> > >> > >> Maybe SDN will satisfy every body concerns… > >> > >> > >> > >> Regards > >> > >> > >> > >> Hooman > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net> > >> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2019 3:23 PM > >> To: Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com>; > gjshep@gmail.com; BIER WG <bier@ietf.org> > >> Subject: RE: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-signaling > >> > >> > >> > >> Hi Hooman, > >> > >> > >> > >> For 3) below, you still have LDP on the border routers and access interfaces, > and the TLDP is not tied to interfaces, so I still don’t see a issue with TLDP. > >> > >> > >> > >> Controller based solution may be ok (I need to read that more closely), but > I can’t support the refreshed inline messages. > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks. > >> Jeffrey > >> > >> > >> > >> From: Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) > [mailto:hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com] > >> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2019 3:16 PM > >> To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>; gjshep@gmail.com; > BIER WG <bier@ietf.org> > >> Subject: RE: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-signaling > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks Jeffrey > >> > >> > >> > >> Yes we had long discussions on this very useful thankyou! > >> > >> > >> > >> My 2 cents > >> > >> > >> > >> 1. We need a solution that is generic for all if not most MPLS protocols. > >> > >> 2. Not all cores will have fully mesh BGP, even that I am not against this but > it will be restrictive, mLDP PE-CE need BGP fully mesh core also. > >> > >> 3. I still don’t see a issue why a thin layer of generic signaling with refresh > timer is not appropriate. The only argument I hear against it is that why not > use TLDP ( the protocol we are trying to eliminate) > >> > >> 4. The draft also proposes a SDN solution to mitigate the challenge ( maybe > this is the cleanest way to go forward and the most generic) when a BFIR > detect that the label mapping message is for a node across BIER domain it will > send a PCRept with the info and the SDN controller assigns a BIER domain > label and configure the stitching via a PCInit message. Same type of idea for > release message… > >> > >> > >> > >> In short this is a very realistic issue for BIER brown field deployment where > portion of the network, like a converge core, needs to be upgraded first. > >> > >> > >> > >> Regards > >> > >> > >> > >> Hooman > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > >> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2019 2:20 PM > >> To: gjshep@gmail.com; BIER WG <bier@ietf.org> > >> Subject: Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-signaling > >> > >> > >> > >> There were quite some offline discussions on this, and I don’t think we’re > ready to adopt this draft yet. > >> > >> > >> > >> There are basically three options to signal mLDP over a BIER core: > >> > >> > >> > >> • RFC7060 mLDP over Targeted sessions > >> • BGP-MVPN/GTM with mLDP as the PE-CE protocol > >> • This draft-hj > >> > >> > >> #1 is already a RFC and can be easily applied to a BIER core. > >> > >> For #2, RFC6514 already covers mLDP as PE-CE protocol. Now with a BIER > core, the only difference is that the provider tunnel is BIER. Although draft- > ietf-bier-mvpn talks about (C-S/*,C-G), other than that all the procedures > apply to mLDP as PE-CE protocol. All we need to do is to extend GTM RFC7716 > (global table multicast with BGP-MVPN) to cover mLDP as the access protocol. > >> > >> > >> > >> #3 converts hard state LDP label mapping/withdraw into soft state > messages carried in BIER. To me that just does not make sense. > >> > >> One reason given for doing #3 is that operators would not want to run LDP > session over the core. I am not yet convinced on that – on the border routers > you need to run LDP on the access interfaces anyway, I really don’t see the > concern with running targeted session over the core. > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks. > >> > >> Jeffrey > >> > >> > >> > >> From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Greg Shepherd > >> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2019 1:15 PM > >> To: BIER WG <bier@ietf.org> > >> Subject: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-signaling > >> > >> > >> > >> Please read and reply to this thread with your vote for/against adoption of: > >> > >> > >> > >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https- > 3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dhj-2Dbier-2Dmldp- > 2Dsignaling_&d=DwIGaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK- > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=f7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE& > m=Vpx0Ms4_sh-AGey7q6TwIobZ1fXErpA8hmzgCH- > zBEQ&s=ey6RLaJG8XZW0q7ua9BYDpy2ZPZ1SzYlDytynfJEyGw&e= > >> > >> > >> > >> ..as a BIER WG document. > >> > >> > >> > >> This starts a two week counter. > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Chairs > >> > >> (Shep) > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> BIER mailing list > >> BIER@ietf.org > >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https- > 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bier&d=DwIGaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scb > fh0UjBXeMK- > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=f7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE& > m=Vpx0Ms4_sh-AGey7q6TwIobZ1fXErpA8hmzgCH- > zBEQ&s=2EQnrOIGydT1kpVNchErJua1WTL5-ajVxKhl4STlYDw&e= > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> BIER mailing list > >> BIER@ietf.org > >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https- > 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_bier&d=DwIGaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scb > fh0UjBXeMK- > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=f7wsLGcfzAWDNS6XNTBZwj_OLAOsZZqdrR2IDAzeZqE& > m=Vpx0Ms4_sh-AGey7q6TwIobZ1fXErpA8hmzgCH- > zBEQ&s=2EQnrOIGydT1kpVNchErJua1WTL5-ajVxKhl4STlYDw&e= > >
- [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-signa… Greg Shepherd
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… IJsbrand Wijnands (iwijnand)
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… Mankamana Mishra (mankamis)
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… IJsbrand Wijnands (iwijnand)
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… Greg Shepherd
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… Dolganow, Andrew (Nokia - SG/Singapore)
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… Greg Shepherd
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… Greg Shepherd
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… Greg Shepherd
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… Greg Shepherd
- Re: [Bier] Call for adoption: draft-hj-bier-ldp-s… Michael McBride