Re: [Bier] Comments on Montreal IETF 105 BIER Agenda

Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> Mon, 22 July 2019 21:07 UTC

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From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 17:07:19 -0400
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To: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
Cc: Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com>, BIER WG <bier@ietf.org>, "bier-ads@ietf.org" <bier-ads@ietf.org>, "bier-chairs@ietf.org" <bier-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] Comments on Montreal IETF 105 BIER Agenda
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I only meant natively - as opposed to over MPLS or Ethernet.
There were a couple drafts discussing options at the time.

Of course, Alvaro has the current state and interpretation!

Regards,
Alia

On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 5:05 PM Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>; wrote:

> Thank you for your input. The fact that draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements
> is an adopted WG document should be confirmation that this work is being
> seriously fconsidered by the WG regardless of current charter
> interpretation, just as I've outlined in email here more than once. Seems
> the only remaining concern is the pace of the IETF WG process. Sorry. I too
> wish things move more quickly. I look forward to further discussions on
> Thurs.
>
> Cheers,
> Greg
> (chairs)
>
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 1:40 PM Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com>;
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Greg,
>>
>> 7) BIER in IPv6 : A mechanism to use BIER natively in IPv6 may be
>> standardized if coordinated with the 6MAN WG and with understood
>> applicability.
>>
>> As of now, the WG has decided that modifying the v6 header to encode BIER
>> is no longer native v6
>> [XJR]
>> Maybe the "natively" in the charter is subjective. Let's think about
>> "BIER in IPv6".
>> BIERv6 is BIER in IPv6 extension header, and BIERin6 is BIER in IPv6
>> payload.
>> Which one do you think is more "native" ? say one is 50% native and one
>> is 60% native?
>> It's clear when this charter text was discussing, we want to have a
>> useful BIER IPv6, instead of limiting ourselves by "native" or not.
>> This can be refered to
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/Zd8mcNc_UoHBrxza7iar8jMjYJg
>> This conclusion above will unnecessarily kill the work we have done on
>> BIERv6 so far, and discourage the work later.
>>
>> Please review the minutes from IETF 104 in Prague:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-104-bier/
>> [XJR]
>> I have read the minutes many times.. Maybe we went wrong to judge native
>> or not from this. For example here is one of the discussion about native:
>> Because bier uses its own header, no matter how you do it, we cannot call
>> it ipv6 native.
>> From this, the "native" does not really exist. How do we explain the
>> charter text then ?
>>
>> If these solutions are out of scope of our charter, we can propose
>> changing the charter to include this
>> work at that time, as necessary.
>> [XJR]
>> I don't think the BIERv6 is out of our current charter.
>> Quite the contrary, it is the reason why we gether here, thinking,
>> discussion, arguing and producing.
>> The current charter is not a far thing, just a year approximately.
>> Maybe the current AD Alvaro can give us the guidence.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Jingrong
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Greg Shepherd [gjshep@gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 23, 2019 2:30
>> *To:* Xiejingrong
>> *Cc:* BIER WG; bier-chairs@ietf.org; bier-ads@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* Re: Comments on Montreal IETF 105 BIER Agenda
>>
>> Jingrong,
>>
>> The agenda stands as a reflection of the decisions of the WG according to
>> our procedures and charter. From the charter:
>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/bier/about/
>>
>> 7) BIER in IPv6 : A mechanism to use BIER natively in IPv6 may be
>> standardized if coordinated with the 6MAN WG and with understood
>> applicability.
>>
>> As of now, the WG has decided that modifying the v6 header to encode BIER
>> is no longer native v6
>>
>> Please review the minutes from IETF 104 in Prague:
>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-104-bier/
>>
>> There was a productive discussion in the room. The consensus in the room,
>> which was confirmed from the list, was that this work will focus on the
>> problem statement first. If one or more unique use-cases are presented that
>> require a new encoding or encapsulation then we can address solutions to
>> these use-case in the associated drafts. If these solutions are out of
>> scope of our charter, we can propose changing the charter to include this
>> work at that time, as necessary.
>>
>> I'm sorry the WG is not moving as fast as you like. I agree with you. :)
>> We have more than a handful of active drafts ready for WGLC and we can't
>> get volunteers for Doc Shepherds. Some WGLC email responses were so
>> depressingly low it can't be considered much of a consensus. But it's what
>> we have and where we are at this time.
>>
>> I look forward getting deeper into the use-cases draft this week. Thanks
>> for you help and patience.
>>
>> - Shep
>> (chairs)
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 5:40 AM Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com>;
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Greg & Chairs,
>>> I have sent my concerns days ago but haven't got any response, so I
>>> have to use a new title on the mail.
>>> I request now to have a *guaranteed* time slot about 10 minutes for
>>> <draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-03> draft, and give up the requested
>>> time slot for the other 3 drafts.
>>> I have the following reasons:
>>> (1) It is the time now to discuss encapsulation proposals, to help
>>> making the <bier-ipv6-requirements> more clear.
>>> (2) the <bierin6> draft is on the agenda with guaranteed time. Obviously
>>> it is an encapsulation draft. It even has many open questions on the list
>>> which I think is serious.
>>> (3) as a cmpromise, I ack to give up the time slot request on other 3
>>> drafts. Does that work for you ?
>>> (4) I have given many comments on the drafts, which I think can shorten
>>> the presentation time. Maybe each for 2 minutes?
>>>
>>> Please let me know your thoughts.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Jingrong
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* BIER [bier-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Greg Shepherd [
>>> gjshep@gmail.com]
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 17, 2019 23:08
>>> *To:* BIER WG
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Bier] BIER WG, Call For Agenda, Montreal IETF 105
>>>
>>> Just updated the agenda:.
>>>
>>> IETF 105, Montreal
>>> BIER WG Agenda
>>>
>>> WG Status Update 15mins, chairs
>>> draft-zzhang-bier-tether-02, 15 minutes, Jeffrey Zhang
>>> draft-hb-bier-mldp-signaling-over-bier, 10 mins Hooman Bidgoli
>>> draft-ietf-bier-multicast-http-response-01, 10 mins, Dirk Trossen
>>> draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam 10min, Greg Mirsky
>>> draft-ietf-bier-te-arch 10min, Toerless Eckert
>>> draft-ietf-bier-mld-02, 10min, Stig Venaas
>>> draft-zhang-bier-bierin6-03
>>>  draft-zhang-bier-source-protection-00, 15min, Sandy Zhang
>>> draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements, 15min, Mike McBride
>>> - additional drafts to be discussed if room decides, based on the above
>>> - requirements draft.
>>>   draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-02
>>>   draft-xie-bier-ipv6-isis-extension-00
>>>   draft-xie-bier-ipv6-mvpn-01
>>>   draft-geng-bier-ipv6-inter-domain-00
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 12:59 PM Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>; wrote:
>>>
>>>> I just uploaded the first draft agenda. Here it is for your review
>>>> (below). Please send corrects here, and slides to me directly (unicast to
>>>> this gmail address).
>>>>
>>>> IETF 105, Montreal
>>>> BIER WG Agenda
>>>>
>>>> WG Status Update 15mins, chairs
>>>> draft-zzhang-bier-tether-02, 15 minutes, Jeffrey Zhang
>>>> draft-hb-bier-mldp-signaling-over-bier, 10 mins Hooman Bidgoli
>>>> draft-ietf-bier-multicast-http-response-01, 10 mins, Dirk Trossen
>>>> draft-ietf-bier-pmmm-oam 10min, Greg Mirsky
>>>> draft-ietf-bier-te-arch 10min, Toerless Eckert
>>>> draft-ietf-bier-mld-02, 10min, Stig Venaas
>>>> draft-ietf-bier-ipv6-requirements, 10min, Mike McBride
>>>> - additional drafts to be discussed if room decides, based on the above
>>>> - requirements draft.
>>>>   draft-xie-bier-ipv6-encapsulation-02
>>>>   draft-xie-bier-ipv6-isis-extension-00
>>>>   draft-xie-bier-ipv6-mvpn-01
>>>>   draft-geng-bier-ipv6-inter-domain-00
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 12:37 PM Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>; wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Please send agenda items with title, draft, speaker name, and
>>>>> requested time to this thread.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Shep
>>>>> (chairs)
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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