From nobody Mon Jun 14 07:22:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: bier@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABDA73A261F for ; Mon, 14 Jun 2021 07:22:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d3Nxr7qxXn5d for ; Mon, 14 Jun 2021 07:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 264763A261E for ; Mon, 14 Jun 2021 07:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id p66so37917269iod.8 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 2021 07:22:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=vZfVn+ompxM57hzpimM1BBhfYIISitce9HH0BDeW9D4=; b=ii431OmSyYUxrJYUszdj32iKBGLorOM13JxHxsE51S1rRRuHQ+9LpX5kjxe/188mLt g+6fhohtP3c2IYIbBzVeNtkxBQ7I0jIwJ2giIlvc9DxVSlm2j2/z4Fpd16CN82xGt4II kz3xB/hN5pgnMIadBZ+w4gkE4N9KhEkxmdgwKaFFA86RTnkmHWN6itdVVTfgV8EJvnk3 ADkXSetepN1sKF2qUsorE+OXhHtbAbwSCK1RGz9pUASH5A/DtUXsOZdQIDyI5Zy0WC/h y3MYYhmiA6pv57898HVQRRwPMgSgEyE7vJTHITAXVuT7o9Vx0UJZTuKg/5sZ2ljyAOBw B38g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=vZfVn+ompxM57hzpimM1BBhfYIISitce9HH0BDeW9D4=; b=AuEg/y+2dYuMC42smgOZQXa5M8GIjsu7LO4KeZDq4/OFTxDgiPDzU6Gwcl++xyYc75 iXji8VXGUv2bRoRQ6Os7e2yThXHKObjIBe5ZwfKPOyjiaEAW0cfdJKkLfxFuBg7eiC2F o3AauWBCggp5VD9wvRPyKLpioLAi4lLhWG1Vd+gBMsi0Dtx9HtwQroBmRGG7CZO/na1E 9hn0Bhp8Fh+GiAQ1mMry8qdX6bOJZ4HvD2Lv5pl3tSw+L6APlzVdV+RXAPfHfvH6h17a Q4NpqYYTSnFMBmDo1jkjz6PIW6i072FTzMx4jfUQNK0I+M28wEToBLzeTHNLXkP/EBi5 2Cvw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531GxqtP/8q6On45Y29mk6ai+ff8E0wjT5aIbhLqfEwyRWVhOIFm 57+jAiRFCw0Xpywv6ahHfgg/xfNTLGRgBiHs4VA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzMLur+eremZRTpwlTDXQwD98f1JkgC8Rc7CJ7qrBfPiLNLnRkcoxr99javojbm69SEsbasCDZWIBbzFe3ufuo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:2202:: with SMTP id l2mr16964478jas.98.1623680567924; Mon, 14 Jun 2021 07:22:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202106122119264815393@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: From: Tony Przygienda Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 16:22:11 +0200 Message-ID: To: "Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" Cc: "gjshep@gmail.com" , "zhang.zheng" , BIER WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007adb6405c4ba9729" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC X-BeenThere: bier@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "\"Bit Indexed Explicit Replication discussion list\"" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 14:22:54 -0000 --0000000000007adb6405c4ba9729 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable AFAIS the rev should include all the lessons we learned since 8279 was smote ;-) Initial architecture was written in a very accessible form, alas could have benefited from more rigour. Trade-off taken was to move fast with folks who were largely mind-melted based on long experience in networking & multicast problems and framework which was malleable rather than formalize things into a strict corset readable for less experienced folks. The rigour would benefit us now IMO, especially since lots of work fleshed the details out and newest discussions show that lots of lessons that old-hands in multicast learned are not necessarily obvious. Things like "how do you route underlay?" which led to BAR/IPA discussions or "can you run BIER without an IGP" which led to lots of yang discussions to allow for controller only deployments or even BIER-TE which basically uses BIER to interpret the bitmask completely differently should be codified in 8279bis IMO. -- tony On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 4:12 PM Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) < hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote: > Hi Greg > > > > Just to ensure is the final goal to update 8279 to include bier forwardin= g > with all BIER encapsulation including MPLS, non-MPLS and IPv6 encap? And/= Or > is it to include bier forwarding over tunnels including mpls, ipv6, for F= RR > etc=E2=80=A6 ? > > > > Thanks > > Hooman > > > > *From:* BIER *On Behalf Of *Greg Shepherd > *Sent:* Monday, June 14, 2021 9:47 AM > *To:* zhang.zheng > *Cc:* BIER WG > *Subject:* Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC > > > > Thank you, Sandy! > > > > Anyone else willing to help? > > > > Thanks, > > Greg > > (Chairs) > > > > > > On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 6:19 AM wrote: > > Hi Gerg, Tony, > May I volunteer for the work to help making the description more detailed= ? > Thank you very much! > Best regards, > Sandy > > =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6 > > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA**:*gjshep > > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA**:*bier; > > *=E6=97=A5=E6=9C=9F**:*2021-06-12 21:05:49 > > *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98**:[Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC= * > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > > A big "thank you" to all WG members who have worked so hard to get BIER t= o > where it is today. And to no surprise, our work is not done. The followin= g > bullet points are from the Chairs' technical summary previously sent to t= he > list: > > > > =E2=80=A2 BIER encoding is specified in RFC8296 > > =E2=80=A2 Alia Atlas: =E2=80=9CIANA code-points don=E2=80=99t change. Th= is is the reason why BIER > began as experimental - narrow > > point in hourglass=E2=80=9D > > =E2=80=A2 The encoding at the =E2=80=9Cnarrow point of the hourglass=E2= =80=9D =E2=80=93 the forwarding > plane =E2=80=93 is the foundation from which > > the rest of the architecture grows. > > =E2=80=A2 This was the position of the IESG and the BIER WG ADs at the ti= me of the > original WG Experimental Charter. > > =E2=80=A2 This is admittedly historic/institutional knowledge of those in= volved in > the WG from the beginning. But it is also > > a core tenet of the layered and scalable architecture of the > Internet and was erroneously assumed as > > well-understood by the original WG contributors. The WG needs to > update the BIER architecture to make this > > responsibility clear for all future contributors. > > > > RFC8279 began as a draft at the very beginning of the WG. It has since > been made clear that the authors at that time had assumed the importance = of > the forwarding plane as the foundation of architecture was well understoo= d > by the community at large. That no longer seems to be the case. > Additionally, the draft of RFC8279 began before the draft of RFC8296 was > complete, and even before the assignment of the IEEE BIER ethertype. > > > > This is a call for volunteers to update RFC8279 to better define BIER at > the forwarding plane, and clarify how IETF-standard encapsulation > mechanisms can be used to transit BIER packets, while preserving the core > tenet of a layered and scalable architecture of the Internet. > > > > If you would like to tackle this update, please reply to this thread. > > > > Thanks, > > Greg > > (Chairs) > > _______________________________________________ > BIER mailing list > BIER@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier > --0000000000007adb6405c4ba9729 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<individual>

AFAI= S the rev should include all the lessons we learned since 8279 was smote ;-= )

Initial architecture was written in a very = accessible form, alas could have benefited from more rigour. Trade-off take= n was to move fast with folks who were largely mind-melted based on long ex= perience in networking & multicast problems and framework which was mal= leable rather than formalize things into a strict corset readable for less = experienced folks. The rigour would benefit us now IMO, especially since lo= ts of work fleshed the details out and newest discussions show that lots of= lessons that old-hands in multicast learned are not necessarily obvious. T= hings like "how do you route underlay?" which led to BAR/IPA disc= ussions or "can you run BIER without an IGP" which led to lots of= yang discussions to allow for controller only deployments or even BIER-TE = which basically uses BIER to interpret the bitmask completely differently s= hould be codified in 8279bis IMO.

-- tony

On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 4:12 PM Bidgoli, Hooman (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) = <hooman.bidgoli@nokia.com> wrote:

Hi Greg

=C2=A0

Just to ensure is the final goal to update 827= 9 to include bier forwarding with all BIER encapsulation including MPLS, no= n-MPLS and IPv6 encap? And/Or is it to include bier forwarding over tunnels including mpls, ipv6, for FRR etc=E2=80=A6 ?

=C2=A0

Thanks

Hooman

=C2=A0

From: BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Greg Shepherd
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2021 9:47 AM
To: zhang.zheng <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
Cc: BIER WG <b= ier@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Bier] RFC8279: Request for authors to update RFC

=C2=A0

Thank you, Sandy!=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Anyone else willing to help?

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Greg

(Chairs)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 6:19 AM <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn> = wrote:

Hi Gerg, Tony,
May I volunteer for the work to help making the description more detailed? =
Thank you very much!
Best regards,
Sandy

=E5= =8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:gjshep<gjshep@g= mail.com>

=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:bier<bier@ietf.org>;

=E6=97=A5=E6=9C=9F:2021-06-12 21:05:49

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:[Bier] RFC8279: Request= for authors to update RFC

___________________________________________= ____
BIER=C2=A0mailing=C2=A0list
BIER@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier

A big "thank you" to all WG members who ha= ve worked so hard to get BIER to where it is today. And to no surprise, our= work is not done. The following bullet points are from the Chairs' tec= hnical summary previously sent to the list:=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=E2=80=A2 BIER encoding is specified in RFC8296 <= /u>

=E2=80=A2 Alia Atlas: =E2=80=9CIANA code-points don= =E2=80=99t change.=C2=A0 This is the reason why BIER began as experimental = - narrow

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 point in hourglass=E2=80= =9D

=E2=80=A2 The encoding at the =E2=80=9Cnarrow point = of the hourglass=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 the forwarding plane =E2=80=93 =C2=A0is= the foundation from which=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the rest of the architec= ture grows.

=E2=80=A2 This was the position of the IESG and the = BIER WG ADs at the time of the original WG Experimental Charter.

=E2=80=A2 This is admittedly historic/institutional = knowledge of those involved in the WG from the beginning. But it is also=C2= =A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a core tenet of the laye= red and scalable architecture of the Internet and was erroneously assumed a= s=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 well-understood by the o= riginal WG contributors. The WG needs to update the BIER architecture to ma= ke this=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 responsibility clear for= all future contributors.

=C2=A0

RFC8279 began as a draft at the very beginning of th= e WG. It has since been made clear that the authors at that time had assume= d the importance of the forwarding plane as the foundation of architecture = was well understood by the community at large. That no longer seems to be the case. Additionally, the draft of = RFC8279 began before the draft of RFC8296 was complete, and even before the= assignment of the IEEE BIER ethertype.

=C2=A0

This is a call for volunteers to update RFC8279 to b= etter define BIER at the forwarding plane, and clarify how IETF-standard en= capsulation mechanisms can be used to transit BIER packets, while preservin= g the core tenet of a layered and scalable architecture of the Internet.

=C2=A0

If you would like to tackle this update, please repl= y to this thread.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Greg

(Chairs)

_______________________________________________
BIER mailing list
BIER@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bier
--0000000000007adb6405c4ba9729--