Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints

Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com> Thu, 17 June 2021 05:08 UTC

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Reply-To: gjshep@gmail.com
From: Greg Shepherd <gjshep@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 22:08:04 -0700
Message-ID: <CABFReBoW7YRPdDVeUWAva8atz4UtfhJoBPnW4orUJ9U41XFFCw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Michael McBride <mmcbride@futurewei.com>
Cc: Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com>, "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints
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Inline:

On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:47 PM Michael McBride <mmcbride@futurewei.com>
wrote:

> Howdy,
>
> Le 2021-06-11 à 13:40, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) a écrit :
> > Dear Martin,
> >
> > We've responded to the summary from chairs on that thread. I think it
> reflects the key technical differences between us and the chairs.
> >>From chairs' point of view, BIERv6 violates BIER architecture, which is
> L2 in nature and should not be IPv6/SRv6 dependent.
> >>From our point of view, BIERv6 does not violate BIER architecture, which
> should be interpreted by RFC8279 text instead of other informal
> interpretation.
>
> >it appears to me that this is the discussion the WG needs to have and
> reach consensus on.
>
> My take from the chairs summary is that they believe BIERv6 is simply
> unnecessary, not that it violates the bier architecture.
>

GS - Correct


> There are many of us who believe using EH for the bitstring is a great use
> of IPv6 with bier.


GS - "Great use" is not a valid use-case. The WG has been asking the
authors for years what the compelling use case is to motivate creating
layer dependencies and we are still waiting.


> This was presented in 6man with positive feedback.


GS - No, it was presented in 6man and the authors were told 6man had no
issues with it from a v6 perspective but that the work needed to work
through the BIER WG for all BIER issues. And the WG is rather exhausted at
having to repeatedly address the same miss-represetned issues, miss-quoted
members of other lists, and having our questions ignored. You are
essentially DOS-ing the WG process rather than listening and collaborating.
It's clear you are unwilling to work collaboratively within the group.
We've tried.


> Perhaps the time has come to propose this work in an IPv6 EH friendly WG?
>

GS - I trust you understand how the standards process works. Good luck.

Greg


> mike
>
> >
> > For the detailed technical points in the BIERv6 solution, we think they
> have been checked carefully in BIER WG and other WGs for long time, and
> have been proven by implementation and test.
> > Also there are solid requirements from industry to have well-adapted
> BIER solution in IPv6/SRv6 network.
> >
> > We seek for your guidance to move our work forward in IETF. We would
> like to propose two options about what should be done in the next step:
> > 1) Consider to adopt BIERv6 in BIER WG, if BIERv6 complies with BIER
> architecture.
> > 2) Move BIERv6 work to other WG, e.g., PIM or SPRING, if BIERv6 does not
> comply with BIER architecture.
> >
> > Thank you very much for your help.
> >
> > Jingrong
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: BIER [mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin
> > Vigoureux
> > Sent: Monday, May 31, 2021 9:29 PM
> > To: bier@ietf.org
> > Subject: [Bier] In reply to the formal complaints
> >
> > WG
> >
> > First, I'd like to apologize for the time this has taken.
> >
> > I have reviewed the two formal complaints that were sent early March,
> and I have also reviewed most of the e-mails that were sent on the bier
> mailing list for the past 12 months or so, relating to BIER and IPv6.
> >
> > I will not individually discuss the various points raised, rather I will
> make a general statement.
> >
> > It is my opinion that a certain number of points are not critical (in
> the sense of not needing an AD to step-in) and some typically happen
> sometimes as part of the life cycle of WGs. Yet, I do recognize that some
> points are more problematic than others.
> > Further, it is my opinion that the points listed may arise from a
> variety of intentions and as such it is hazardous to associate them with a
> particular one.
> > It is however my opinion that the multiplicity of concerns is, in
> itself, a concern.
> > I have talked with the chairs. They do recognize that, at some
> occasions, their communication was not the most effective one, and I trust
> they will pay attention to that in the future.
> >
> > About the adoption poll on draft-zhang-bier-bierin6. Although the way
> this was handled raised some concerns, I'd like to remind that an adoption
> poll is not formally part of our processes, even if it is common practice,
> and in fact it only marks the start of the WG discussion. As such, I have
> little arguments to go back on this.
> >
> > The last part is about the progress of a so-called BIER v6 solution.
> > Here, I have asked the chairs to establish a summary of the discussions
> regarding that type of solution in general and regarding the specific
> document which proposes a solution. They should publish it some time after
> this e-mail.
> >
> > Following that, it is my expectation that the WG has a fair and open
> discussion, ideally focussing on the general aspects, and then concludes on
> the way forward.
> >
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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