Re: [Bier] WG adoption call for draft-chen-bier-frr-02

"Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net> Wed, 17 March 2021 00:36 UTC

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From: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" <zzhang@juniper.net>
To: Michael Menth <menth@uni-tuebingen.de>, Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>, Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
CC: "bier@ietf.org" <bier@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Bier] WG adoption call for draft-chen-bier-frr-02
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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 00:36:34 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bier/zfbE-8hHsTnzhkRDDZg1wfvU454>
Subject: Re: [Bier] WG adoption call for draft-chen-bier-frr-02
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Hi Michael,

I think it's better to have a single document to cover both.

If my understanding of draf-chen is correct, then having separate FRR BIFTs will have problems so the baseline would be a single BIFT with each entry having ECMP/primary/backup branches. Whether a backup branch is tunnel based or LFA based does not matter and one can even mix and match. From that angle, it is better to cover both in the same document so that one can get a holistic view from a single document.

I had forgot that your work had progressed so much (beyond BIER WG). With that consideration and my perhaps biased view that draft-merling describes an optimal baseline model, I think it's good to extend the draft-merling work and there is no need for another framework document (even though I said earlier that I might write an information draft to elaborate my view).

Jeffrey

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Menth <menth@uni-tuebingen.de>
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 6:57 PM
To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>et>; Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>om>; Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Cc: bier@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Bier] WG adoption call for draft-chen-bier-frr-02

[External Email. Be cautious of content]


Hi Jeffrey,

I understand that informational is the right classification of such
documents. I see two options.
- A single document covering the entire topic.
- Two bier-frr docs (tunnel-based and lfa-based), preferentially using
similar laguage. Then one can talk about RFC 123 or RFC XYZ protection.
If the mechanisms are described within a single document, there is some
potential for confusion. Not sure if an overarching framework for
bier-frr is then still needed.

Regards,

Michael


Am 16.03.2021 um 23:16 schrieb Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang:
> Hi Michael,
>
> We are on the same page. Progressing an informational draft on this topic is fine and seems to be even more necessary now. In fact, when draft-chen was presented last time I had suggested for some joint work.
>
> Thanks.
> Jeffrey
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Menth <menth@uni-tuebingen.de>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 3:03 PM
> To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang <zzhang@juniper.net>et>; Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>om>; Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
> Cc: bier@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Bier] WG adoption call for draft-chen-bier-frr-02
>
> [External Email. Be cautious of content]
>
>
> Hi Jeffrey, all,
>
> your proposal was also the conclusion two years ago when I brought up
> the topic in the working group:
>
> "The BIER FRR mechanism - be it tunnel-based or re-implementing LFAs on
> the BIER layer - is a local mechanism and does not require cooperation
> from other nodes. Probably both mechanisms can be even mixed within the
> same network. Therefore, there is not need for standardization."
>
> I think this is not documented in any IETF drafts or even meeting
> minutes, it was just a conclusion from some side meetings. That was also
> the reason why we did not progress the draft on tunnel-based bier-frr.
>
> Nevertheless, it may be helpful to at least document both existing
> bier-frr approaches as an informational draft so that manufacturers can
> easily point to an implemented solution. This is helpful as both
> solutions have pros and cons. A lot of contents is already in that paper
> in which we summarized our understanding of the discussions two years ago:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://atlas.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/*menth/papers/Menth20c.pdf__;fg!!NEt6yMaO-gk!XVo5XuifwFLLaWFLD2OZmJq1fws1WhcSKnUU3bjUch1IhPPKhQgxjetcUsxoFVJv$
> Some of its content may be useful for an overview draft of bier-frr methods.
>
> Regards
>
> Michael
>
> Am 16.03.2021 um 19:23 schrieb Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang:
>> If you consider BIFT and unicast FIB, they are actually very similar
>> (ignoring the SI/sub-domain and bier label aspects). The only
>> differences are:
>>
>>
>>
>>  1. (bfr-id % bitstringLength) or prefix as key
>>  2. F-BM associated with a BFR-nbr in BIFT
>>
>>
>>
>> Each BIFT entry is built according how to reach a corresponding BFER,
>> and the F-BM is obtained by setting the bits for all the BFERs that are
>> reached by the BFR nbr.
>>
>>
>>
>> So, however you do FRR for unicast (LFA or tunnel based link/node
>> protection or whatever) and whether it is IGP or BGP or whatever, you
>> can just build the BIER FRR forwarding state the same way, and update
>> the F-BM for the backup nbr accordingly.
>>
>>
>>
>> That's why I keep saying that there is not much to standardize on BIER
>> FRR. It seems that this topic keeps coming up, so perhaps I should write
>> an information draft to elaborate the above principle and how it works
>> with various protection mechanisms.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jeffrey
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of * Huaimo Chen
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 16, 2021 1:28 PM
>> *To:* Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* bier@ietf.org; Michael Menth <menth@uni-tuebingen.de>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Bier] WG adoption call for draft-chen-bier-frr-02
>>
>>
>>
>> *[External Email. Be cautious of content]*
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Tony,
>>
>>
>>
>>     Even though there is IGP running in the network and the underlay IP
>> FRR is provided, the BIER FRR seems still needed. All the BIER packets
>> are forwarded using the BIFTs. They are not forwarded using the normal
>> FIBs with IP FRR support.  When a failure happens in the network, the
>> BIER packets will still be forwarded using the old BIFTs without
>> considering the failure until the old BIFT is recomputed and updated
>> based on the new network topology after the failure. During this period
>> (from the time of the failure to the time at which the BIFTs are
>> updated), the BIER packets may be lost.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Huaimo
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From:*Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com <mailto:tonysietf@gmail.com>>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 16, 2021 12:58 PM
>> *To:* Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com
>> <mailto:huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>>
>> *Cc:* Michael Menth <menth@uni-tuebingen.de
>> <mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de>>; bier@ietf.org <mailto:bier@ietf.org>
>> <bier@ietf.org <mailto:bier@ietf.org>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Bier] WG adoption call for draft-chen-bier-frr-02
>>
>>
>>
>> we need a framework here ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>> when IGP calculates the underlying FRR it's always a better solution.
>> Nothing is faster than IGP and anything calculated as "better FRR" or
>> "backup FRR" will not have the topology to do a better job/faster than
>> IGP can. So AFAIS the only real use case here is BIER without IGP
>> signalling but correct me if I'm wrong
>>
>>
>>
>> -- tony
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 5:02 PM Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com
>> <mailto:huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     Hi Michael,
>>
>>
>>
>>         Thanks much for your valuable comments.
>>
>>         My responses are inline below with prefix [HC].
>>
>>
>>
>>     Best Regards,
>>
>>     Huaimo
>>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>     *From:*BIER <bier-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:bier-bounces@ietf.org>>
>>     on behalf of Michael Menth <menth@uni-tuebingen.de
>>     <mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de>>
>>     *Sent:* Tuesday, March 16, 2021 7:11 AM
>>     *To:* bier@ietf.org <mailto:bier@ietf.org> <bier@ietf.org
>>     <mailto:bier@ietf.org>>
>>     *Subject:* Re: [Bier] WG adoption call for draft-chen-bier-frr-02
>>
>>
>>
>>     Hi Tony, all,
>>
>>     Am 16.03.2021 um 11:08 schrieb Tony Przygienda:
>>
>>     > I think it's a good addition within the architecture for the case
>>     IGP is
>>     > not used for signalling, e.g. when controller or static programming.
>>
>>     Right. The solution may make sense if the routing underlay does not
>>     offer FRR capabilities.
>>
>>
>>
>>     [HC]: When the routing underlay supports IP FRR, the BIER should also
>>
>>     provide BIER FRR since the BIER packets are forwarded using the BIFTs.
>>
>>     When failures happen in the network, the BIER packets are still
>>     forwarded
>>
>>     using the old BIFTs until the old BIFTs are updated according to the
>>
>>     updated network topology after the failures.
>>
>>
>>     >
>>     > The draft must however explain in what scenarios it is used and quote
>>     > the according IGP drafts to guarantee loop-free behavior (well, BIER
>>     > will tie-break loops but we'll have 1x microloop & possibly not
>>     deliver
>>     > payload if BIER FRR is not properly computed/intsalled). With that the
>>     > draft should also pay attention to how the function is
>>     deployed/updated
>>     > network-wide if IGP is not present
>>
>>     I agree. in the absence of an IGP, the "native BIER-FRR on bier layer"
>>     must be set by a controller.
>>
>>
>>
>>     [HC]: I agree too.
>>
>>     So, below the line, an applicability statement would be helpful. What
>>     are those cases?
>>     - IGP running but without FRR on the routing underlay?
>>     - No IGP and no FRR on the routing underlay?
>>
>>
>>
>>     [HC]: When IGP is running in the network, each BFR in the network
>>     calculates,
>>
>>     installs and/or updates its BIER FRR BIFTs. The BIER FRR in the
>>     draft is
>>
>>     independent of the underlay IP FRR.
>>
>>     When no IGP is running in the network, the BIER controller for the
>>     network
>>
>>     calculates, installs and/or updates the BIER FRR BIFTs into BFRs in
>>     the network,
>>
>>     regardless of whether the routing underlay FRR is provided.
>>
>>
>>
>>     However, if the controller takes care of BIER-FRR, what could be reasons
>>     for missing FRR on the routing underlay? If there is a FRR on the
>>     routing underlay (also provided through a controller), tunnel-based
>>     bier-frr solves the problem in a transparent way.
>>
>>
>>
>>     [HC]: The BIER FRR in the draft is independent of the underlay IP FRR.
>>
>>     Regardless of whether the routing underlay FRR is provided, the
>>
>>     BIER FRR BIFTs are computed in the same way.
>>
>>     BTW, we studied protection variants for controller-based infrastructures
>>     (for routing underlays, not for BIER). Challenge is to keep state low.
>>     LFA-based solutions help a lot and outperform others. 100% protection is
>>     possible with only little additions. Results are available:
>>     https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https:*2F*2Fatlas.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de*2F*menth*2Fpapers*2FMenth20-Sub-6.pdf&amp;data=04*7C01*7Chuaimo.chen*40futurewei.com*7C5d3cb8163c7f4a1557e608d8e86c408f*7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc*7C1*7C1*7C637514898966623524*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C3000&amp;sdata=03cc*2BIvdV*2BCg*2F0PCFulWzuCa0h4I5sBqn8K5QPT5BR8*3D&amp;reserved=0__;JSUlfiUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!NEt6yMaO-gk!XVo5XuifwFLLaWFLD2OZmJq1fws1WhcSKnUU3bjUch1IhPPKhQgxjetcUh_8_hxk$
>>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https:*2F*2Fatlas.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de*2F*menth*2Fpapers*2FMenth20-Sub-6.pdf&data=04*7C01*7Chuaimo.chen*40futurewei.com*7C2b86f5e805f04cf24c1008d8e89cdcd4*7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc*7C1*7C1*7C637515107733090092*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C1000&sdata=CNKcultin43VrTAvr*2BFH7V1FrMALSvaSpfmEiHcKm*2Fg*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlfiUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!NEt6yMaO-gk!SBpWq7LIP13dlIX5P6U98cqIp8gTMP5_gelzA7rNyBrhf7h6mMn6N6YLFKhaK3F2$>
>>     (under
>>     revision)
>>
>>
>>
>>     [HC]: Thanks much for your information.
>>
>>
>>
>>     Regards,
>>
>>     Michael
>>
>>     >
>>     > thanks
>>     >
>>     > -- tony
>>     >
>>     > On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 7:41 AM <zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn
>>     <mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>
>>     > <mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn <mailto:zhang.zheng@zte.com.cn>>>
>>     wrote:
>>     >
>>     >     A 2-week WG adoption call begins for the following draft:
>>     >
>>     >
>>     https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fdatatracker.ietf.org*2Fdoc*2Fdraft-chen-bier-frr*2F&amp;data=04*7C01*7Chuaimo.chen*40futurewei.com*7C5d3cb8163c7f4a1557e608d8e86c408f*7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc*7C1*7C1*7C637514898966623524*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C3000&amp;sdata=797z0ndM2IahVL2y9xPoY*2BOU5x4*2F3w1FaSWfoF*2BC6pQ*3D&amp;reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!NEt6yMaO-gk!XVo5XuifwFLLaWFLD2OZmJq1fws1WhcSKnUU3bjUch1IhPPKhQgxjetcUjt7UD4f$
>>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fdatatracker.ietf.org*2Fdoc*2Fdraft-chen-bier-frr*2F&data=04*7C01*7Chuaimo.chen*40futurewei.com*7C2b86f5e805f04cf24c1008d8e89cdcd4*7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc*7C1*7C1*7C637515107733090092*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C1000&sdata=4v2q4ToPT83pQYu5Fdwpc04pIcWrlihqy5m8YjgkVMA*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!NEt6yMaO-gk!SBpWq7LIP13dlIX5P6U98cqIp8gTMP5_gelzA7rNyBrhf7h6mMn6N6YLFNWNaFXu$>
>>     >
>>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fdatatracker.ietf.org*2Fdoc*2Fdraft-chen-bier-frr*2F&amp;data=04*7C01*7Chuaimo.chen*40futurewei.com*7C5d3cb8163c7f4a1557e608d8e86c408f*7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc*7C1*7C1*7C637514898966623524*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C3000&amp;sdata=797z0ndM2IahVL2y9xPoY*2BOU5x4*2F3w1FaSWfoF*2BC6pQ*3D&amp;reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!NEt6yMaO-gk!XVo5XuifwFLLaWFLD2OZmJq1fws1WhcSKnUU3bjUch1IhPPKhQgxjetcUjt7UD4f$
>>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fdatatracker.ietf.org*2Fdoc*2Fdraft-chen-bier-frr*2F&data=04*7C01*7Chuaimo.chen*40futurewei.com*7C2b86f5e805f04cf24c1008d8e89cdcd4*7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc*7C1*7C1*7C637515107733100045*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C1000&sdata=koqOJ4RFqPhBPl81t259PjxeQ6TxmcdtMMqgC0XXDzQ*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!NEt6yMaO-gk!SBpWq7LIP13dlIX5P6U98cqIp8gTMP5_gelzA7rNyBrhf7h6mMn6N6YLFF8NiiJX$>>
>>     >
>>     >     Please indicate your support or objection by March 30th, 2021.
>>     >
>>     >     Authors, please respond to the list indicating whether you are
>>     aware
>>     >     of any IPR that applies to this draft.
>>     >
>>     >     Thanks,
>>     >
>>     >     Sandy (As WG secretary, on behalf of Greg/Tony)
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > _______________________________________________
>>     > BIER mailing list
>>     > BIER@ietf.org <mailto:BIER@ietf.org>
>>     >
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>>     >
>>
>>     --
>>     Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
>>     University of Tuebingen
>>     Faculty of Science
>>     Department of Computer Science
>>     Chair of Communication Networks
>>     Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
>>     phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
>>     fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
>>     mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de <mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de>
>>     https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Fkn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de*2F&amp;data=04*7C01*7Chuaimo.chen*40futurewei.com*7C5d3cb8163c7f4a1557e608d8e86c408f*7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc*7C1*7C1*7C637514898966623524*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C3000&amp;sdata=2gozTq4XIXnxQu2P62mtFSGOEID93679cjqQeAQOPbo*3D&amp;reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!NEt6yMaO-gk!XVo5XuifwFLLaWFLD2OZmJq1fws1WhcSKnUU3bjUch1IhPPKhQgxjetcUt3QWHXy$
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>>
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>>
>>
>> Juniper Business Use Only
>>
>
> --
> Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
> University of Tuebingen
> Faculty of Science
> Department of Computer Science
> Chair of Communication Networks
> Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
> phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
> fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
> mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://kn.inf.uni-tuebingen.de__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!XVo5XuifwFLLaWFLD2OZmJq1fws1WhcSKnUU3bjUch1IhPPKhQgxjetcUk6GcMm1$
>
> Juniper Business Use Only
>

--
Prof. Dr. habil. Michael Menth
University of Tuebingen
Faculty of Science
Department of Computer Science
Chair of Communication Networks
Sand 13, 72076 Tuebingen, Germany
phone: (+49)-7071/29-70505
fax: (+49)-7071/29-5220
mailto:menth@uni-tuebingen.de
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