Re: FW: IPv8 Tutorial #1: Minimal IPv8 hack

[Darren Reed <[e-mail]>]

[Jim, I'm moving this thread to big-internet, as it seems many of the concerns
 being raised are more suited to discussion there and there are people much
 better qualified than myself to comment on your protocol who read it.
 Perhaps I should have done this earlier in the thread.]

Dear big-internet folk, this fellow, Jim Fleming, is proposing his own new
IP protocol, IPv8.  Details can be found at the following URL:

http://comm.unety.net/US/IL/Naperville/Unir

Below are some of the comments from the freebsd-hackers mailling list...
enjoy!

Darren
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
From: Jim Fleming <[e-mail]>
To: "'[e-mail]'" <[e-mail]>
Subject: FW: IPv8 Tutorial #1: Minimal IPv8 hack
Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 01:22:34 -0500
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On Sunday, May 05, 1996 10:45 AM, Darren Reed[SMTP:[e-mail]] wrote:
@ > There is an IPv8 header file referenced at...
@ > 	http://comm.unety.net/US/IL/Naperville/Unir
@ 
@ ok, thanks for the URL.
@ 

That URL should help give you an overview...working
with code and transporting packets gives one first-hand
experience.

By the way, IPv8 can also be used to disable checksums
and for certain "security" tricks on internal networks.

@ > There are macros to test the version and options bits...
@ > 
@ > You have to use "&" and not "==" to make sure you
@ > are testing just one bit at a time. Only the high bit
@ > of the IPv4 version field (ip->ip_v) is used for version.
@ 
@ But 4 = 0100, 6 = 0110, 8 = 1000, etc.
@ 

Yes...and you will note that 4 and 6 both have the high
bit as 0. IPv8 takes that bit, sets it to 1 and then "borrows"
the other bits. A more accurate description would be...

"@ But 4 = 0100, 6 = 0110, 8 = 1XXX, etc."

@ I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but there is an IPv6 being developed by
@ a large number of people.
@ 

I have been at this over 20 years...I am very aware of IPv6.
Have you ever seen some of the "private" opinions about
IPv6 from some of the experts that designed it...???

@ Hmmm.
@ 
@ I'm *very* concerned that you're doing this.
@ 

I am glad that you are concerned. Maybe you can help
launch and administer the Australian/New Zealand Galaxy?

@ Have you submitted any documentation on this to the IETF ?
@ 

The IETF is only concerned with a small subset of the IPv8
OuterInternet. Galaxy 0: StarGate 0: has been allocated to
the Legacy Internet. The IPv8 OuterInternet is built on the
"outside" of the Legacy Internet.

@ Protocol numbers aren't there to be chosen lightly, they should be
@ registered with the IANA first, before use.
@ 

The IANA is only involved with the Legacy Internet. The
IANA has nothing to do with the OuterInternet. The OuterInternet
will be administered by true "trusteeships" and not individuals.



--
Jim Fleming
UNETY Systems, Inc.
Naperville, IL

e-mail: [e-mail]


Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
From: Jim Fleming <[e-mail]>
To: "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: IPv8 Tutorial #1: Minimal IPv8 hack
Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 01:56:28 -0500
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On Sunday, May 05, 1996 11:42 AM, Darren Reed[SMTP:[e-mail]] wrote:
@ In some mail from Jim Fleming, sie said:
@ > 
@ > @ > There are macros to test the version and options bits...
@ > @ > 
@ > @ > You have to use "&" and not "==" to make sure you
@ > @ > are testing just one bit at a time. Only the high bit
@ > @ > of the IPv4 version field (ip->ip_v) is used for version.
@ > @ 
@ > @ But 4 = 0100, 6 = 0110, 8 = 1000, etc.
@ > 
@ > Yes...and you will note that 4 and 6 both have the high
@ > bit as 0. IPv8 takes that bit, sets it to 1 and then "borrows"
@ > the other bits. A more accurate description would be...
@ > 
@ > "@ But 4 = 0100, 6 = 0110, 8 = 1XXX, etc."
@ 
@ So you want to reserve half of the IP version numbers for your own protocol ?

That is one way to describe it...just as IANA reserves huge blocks of
IP addresses and forces ISPs to beg for addresses from a tiny portion
of the address space...Oh that's right the router tables are filling up...
so let's slow start all of the ISPs and fragment the IPv4 address space
and make the situation so bad that everyone is encouraged to seek
IP addresses from "upstream providers"...and the big get bigger and
most people beg for resources that are "reserved" for selected people...

Another way to look at this is to describe the usage of the following
IP version numbers....

	0 - ???
	1 - ???
	2 - ???
	3 - ???
	4 - Used by most systems
	5 - ???
	6 - Proposed for IPv6
	7 - ???

Are the other version numbers "wasted"...
is there such a thing as ecology in the Internet...
does only the IANA get to waste/reserve Internet resources...???

<snip>
--
Jim Fleming
UNETY Systems, Inc.
Naperville, IL

e-mail: [e-mail]


Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
From: Jim Fleming <[e-mail]>
To: "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: IPv8 Tutorial #1: Minimal IPv8 hack
Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 02:41:01 -0500
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On Sunday, May 05, 1996 12:33 PM, michael butler[SMTP:[e-mail]] wrote:
@ Darren Reed writes:
<snip>
@ Neither IPv8 or IPv6 is going to magically "fix" the result of at least
@ one of the three 6 meg bearers taking today off on a picnic :-(
@ 
@ 	michael
@ 
@ 

Keep in mind that if you are on an IPv8 network then the
IPv4 Legacy Internet is viewed as "damage" and we route
around it...:-)
--
Jim Fleming
UNETY Systems, Inc.
Naperville, IL

e-mail: [e-mail]


Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
From: Jim Fleming <[e-mail]>
Cc: "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: IPv8 Tutorial #1: Minimal IPv8 hack 
Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 02:44:54 -0500
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On Sunday, May 05, 1996 1:43 AM, Warner Losh[SMTP:[e-mail]] wrote:
<snip>
@ Finally, while I'm adamantly opposed to placing this in the FreeBSD
@ kernel, Jim can and should distribute patches that he finds good and
@ useful.
@ 
@ Warner
@ 
@ 

Keep in mind that eventually you get the C+@ Programming Language
and all of the CONIX Operating Environment as well as the DoorStep
Visual Development Environment....FREE...plus distributed objects
across the IPv8 network...not to mention, your own Class B (/16)
IPv8 addresses...

...not a bad deal...:-)




--
Jim Fleming
UNETY Systems, Inc.
Naperville, IL

e-mail: [e-mail]


Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
From: Jim Fleming <[e-mail]>
To: "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: IPv8 Tutorial #1: Minimal IPv8 hack
Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 02:47:33 -0500
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On Sunday, May 05, 1996 11:42 AM, Darren Reed[SMTP:[e-mail]] wrote:
@ In some mail from Jim Fleming, sie said:
<snip>

@ > The IETF is only concerned with a small subset of the IPv8
@ > OuterInternet. Galaxy 0: StarGate 0: has been allocated to
@ > the Legacy Internet. The IPv8 OuterInternet is built on the
@ > "outside" of the Legacy Internet.
@ 
@ Have you asked them ?
@ 
@ I think you'll find they'll let anybody submit anything as an informational
@ RFC or an internet-draft.
@ 

Be my guest...submit whatever you like...
you are FREE to use the material any way that you like...
...that is the way I interpret the word Free in FreeBSD...



--
Jim Fleming
UNETY Systems, Inc.
Naperville, IL

e-mail: [e-mail]


Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
From: Jim Fleming <[e-mail]>
Cc: "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>RG>,
        Warner Losh
	 <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: IPv8 Tutorial #1: Minimal IPv8 hack 
Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 02:38:22 -0500
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On Sunday, May 05, 1996 1:33 AM, Jordan K. Hubbard[SMTP:[e-mail]] wrote:
@ Well, if nothing else it's pretty confusing.  When I first saw this
@ mentioned, before receiving clarification, my reaction was to go
@ "What?!  IPv6 isn't even out yet, now somebody's talking about IPv8??
@ What the &*^%@#$! is going on here?!?"
@ 
@ These changes should start going under a different operating title, at
@ the very least.
@ 
@ 						Jordan
@ 
<snip>

C+@nIP is a good name...:-)

BTW, IPv6 is also referred to as IPng (IP Next Generation)

The 8 in IPv8 refers to the fact that the bit with a value 8
is used to tag the packets and borrow the rest of the
version field and the header length field.

The actual value of that bit if you consider bytes is 128. I
considered calling this IPv128 but some thought that would
be confusing because IPv6 uses 128 bit addresses.

Keep in mind from a code point of view there are two views.

	1. The view of the person that has an IPv4 implementation.
		(FreeBSD falls in this C+@tegory)
	2. The view of the person that has IPv8 and wants hacks for IPv4.

In this second view, IPv4 is an optimization of IPv8 for a limited
32 bit address space. This is similar to the PPP optimizations
for IP. With this view, IPv8 and IPv4 are good names, because
IPv8 supports more "cylinders" just as in a car.

--
Jim Fleming
UNETY Systems, Inc.
Naperville, IL

e-mail: [e-mail]