Re: [Bimi] [EXTERNAL] Re: BIMI Reporting
"Brotman, Alex" <Alex_Brotman@comcast.com> Thu, 21 April 2022 18:50 UTC
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From: "Brotman, Alex" <Alex_Brotman@comcast.com>
To: "BIMI (IETF) (bimi@ietf.org)" <bimi@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Bimi] BIMI Reporting
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Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 18:48:44 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bimi/OBV7doUSKhjFDyS-2Y6kg5a2-8c>
Subject: Re: [Bimi] [EXTERNAL] Re: BIMI Reporting
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Apologies for the delayed response, was OOO and still catching up a bit. 3) My point was that you could send multiple campaigns through the week, then all the users open the next day .. how does that work? 4) There’s no TTL specified as it pertains to the MBP or MUA caching of the imagery that I recall. While I understand the desire to show value to prospective BIMI deployers, is there no way to get this from current ESP metrics (click/conversion)? -- Alex Brotman Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy Comcast From: Tom Bartel <tom.bartel@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, April 11, 2022 3:30 PM To: Brotman, Alex <Alex_Brotman@comcast.com> Cc: bimi@ietf.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Bimi] BIMI Reporting Alex, Thanks - good questions. 1) I would say logging a "display" count once per recipient, on the first display only. 2) Reporting could report separately for list view and message view counts. In aggregate, anonymized, no need to relate the two 3) Display count is logged relative to display datetim, not sent datetime or any other datetime 4) Muddies it yes, depends on the TTL I suppose. Even with cache factor, the signal normalizes into some baseline metric that can be taken in context with other metrics (open and click rate) - I cant recall does the BIMI spec advise a cache TTL at all? I'm suggesting that an additional, discrete signal on BIMI displays would be advantageous, alongside existing open/click data (where open signal is subject to a lot of fuzz already, outside of Yahoo direct data offering). My take on BIMI is that for a sender, it's an incentive/reward to do DMARC at full enforcement - the carrot, if you will, is that doing so provides an advantage in the inbox - not getting to the inbox, but standing out once there. Big question is, does BIMI provide such a lift in practice? Thanks, Tom On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 6:19 AM Brotman, Alex <Alex_Brotman@comcast.com<mailto:Alex_Brotman@comcast.com>> wrote: Tom, I have questions about how this would be counted (“aggregate” is vague). 1. Once per recipient for the entirety of the inbox? 2. In the web versions for active participants, the logo shows only when the message is opened. In mobile, it shows in the list view and when opened. How is that accounted for? 3. Is it all messages in the inbox, even if not sent that day? 4. MUAs may cache these images, and then may not need to fetch them on-demand. Does this reduce the usefulness of the metric? Could not the brands utilize their own engagement metrics to determine if the squeeze is good? I understand there are various groups trying to eliminate the Open metric, though the Click/Conversion metrics are still viable, yes? I’m not entirely comfortable with BIMI itself being an engagement metric. Is this meant to be optionally supplied by the receiver? Thanks for the feedback. -- Alex Brotman Sr. Engineer, Anti-Abuse & Messaging Policy Comcast From: bimi <bimi-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:bimi-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Tom Bartel Sent: Wednesday, April 6, 2022 7:09 PM To: bimi@ietf.org<mailto:bimi@ietf.org> Subject: [Bimi] BIMI Reporting After reviewing the BIMI Reporting draft: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-adams-bimi-reporting<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-adams-bimi-reporting__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!R06xZr6hwSAFSpSZ8V7DUzSjr9LHJ6z5gGQTn-w0XPV_AiVHqAGmmAIvC3wly4lKgKpggrQ$> I think that it may be missing some useful data that would greatly benefit BIMI (and DMARC) adoption. Through discussions with senders interested in BIMI, it’s become apparent that they’ll need to measure the effectiveness of their deployment (to justify their spend), and I don’t think that the current reporting draft includes the necessary level of data. I’d suggest the addition of an aggregate count per reporting period (e.g. 24 hours) of BIMI logos that were displayed by the MUA. This would be in addition to the aggregate BIMI record evaluations already in the draft. Senders ultimately want to know if the “juice will be worth the squeeze” - that is, not only implementing DMARC, but the additional effort of implementing BIMI, too. I know that this level of reporting may happen elsewhere in the email pipeline than where DMARC and initial BIMI evaluation occurs, though I think it’s important enough to explore whether it can be added. What do folks think? Does it make sense to add this additional reporting signal to the BIMI Reporting draft? Tom -- Phone: 303.517.9655 Instagram: https://instagram.com/bartel_photo<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/instagram.com/bartel_photo__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!UcHqa8Ul83rgS2e17eoyxRjtTVtyY7XUTVes6DIa1zB1fp4mvml8P6ACLKkNkzFJn27F$> "Life's most persistent and urgent question is, 'What are you doing for others?'" - Martin Luther King Jr.
- [Bimi] BIMI Reporting Tom Bartel
- Re: [Bimi] BIMI Reporting Brotman, Alex
- Re: [Bimi] BIMI Reporting Trent Adams
- Re: [Bimi] BIMI Reporting Tom Bartel
- Re: [Bimi] [EXTERNAL] Re: BIMI Reporting Brotman, Alex