Re: [Bimi] MUA Evaluation of BIMI

Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net> Tue, 15 March 2022 20:33 UTC

Return-Path: <dhc@dcrocker.net>
X-Original-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: bimi@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A7DB3A005F for <bimi@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 13:33:57 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -7.108
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=dcrocker.net
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h1GnmVqYp3XC for <bimi@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 13:33:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from purple.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (purple.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F29D3A0163 for <bimi@ietf.org>; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 13:33:50 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender-Id: hostingeremail|x-authsender|dhc@dcrocker.net
Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF64D2A1B6D; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 20:33:49 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from gcp-us-central1-a-smtpout1.hostinger.io (unknown [127.0.0.6]) (Authenticated sender: hostingeremail) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 810512A12B6; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 20:33:48 +0000 (UTC)
ARC-Seal: i=1; s=arc-2022; d=mailchannels.net; t=1647376428; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=XdXpqK9M2Ck6unlFJwA2y4f+JuWp7BLTAuDW8hYtOKxd0LuLpNB0ENUxOc3TVjap9+DLRa xGD0N3hypsdKrGYpqp8EGOWmp67dPALkbuKWRh9d34RpYSU4NGIukceNvyD4M3tTg9sfWZ h422BPpw+UcZnixVCmpseB3er3kAdPibtS60RcTrnPYanTfdG+7QLq6yCPwIzpb1drBIaO X+IraDJlsWQJBnNoAfFM2iZyOYNzy/e62TQvKM3KVlVNBpFzgspise/8gKVK/kjRkCyOny 8opXGsdjV4NERzWxGjXzNCW1V+eMSppcKloLOQGFcuRzcHJu2fi8Q1NUhWZsXg==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mailchannels.net; s=arc-2022; t=1647376428; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:dkim-signature; bh=TK+eu+xFOvSfxImfjvAmQFUQ1I62kEClvFR8jXRIqtM=; b=EGC11LtZZgvx7yMYeKK6FxEhEqwiLYs7fHcUVLe7r/HJBudUlekIpoi9BnBYVRHB8tLmvJ c7ZeM3+bHky08aS+HLFcbmQOF6uXnqMRQyvWgx8icsflRBvWAE3rA0Th1uPm2s9qzRFDF1 rrjwrkSHhjK/Z4afR1h/SpyA9sRlduuv5HzHGqSK3Y8j633depsRxW36unoRe6HbgCl0/Q J6Z+08gCQA3+JyAP55HHFP0f5QOoITMdfnl2ILF86ckIB+ev2LSMSDtINHT5M21E0Eltai zSPkT0UJPFkeKpbHJiwHOwMcpi71+lX2ABXvD9eEvBhXI4AayH0Z/r1ED/E1lA==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; rspamd-74bfb75fc6-k9xhb; auth=pass smtp.auth=hostingeremail smtp.mailfrom=dhc@dcrocker.net
X-Sender-Id: hostingeremail|x-authsender|dhc@dcrocker.net
Received: from gcp-us-central1-a-smtpout1.hostinger.io (gcp-us-central1-a-smtpout1.hostinger.io [35.184.15.197]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256) by 100.107.255.147 (trex/6.5.3); Tue, 15 Mar 2022 20:33:49 +0000
X-MC-Relay: Neutral
X-MailChannels-SenderId: hostingeremail|x-authsender|dhc@dcrocker.net
X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: hostingeremail
X-Snatch-Descriptive: 19e404af40ef1949_1647376429128_3960732721
X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1647376429128:3077781430
X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1647376429127
Received: from [192.168.0.112] (c-73-170-122-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [73.170.122.71]) (Authenticated sender: dhc@dcrocker.net) by smtp.hostinger.com (smtp.hostinger.com) with ESMTPSA id 4KJ4qr3W8Cz2cFbC; Tue, 15 Mar 2022 20:33:44 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dcrocker.net; s=hostingermail-a; t=1647376427; bh=YLYkXA73TTkhAEOS13XX/kbFKgdyv9lc9ggQPEZh9lk=; h=Date:Reply-To:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=S2NfRRTITtnEnb2VCPgblPOJsk4r4lhG7O+UKyMm5ai1U/oQp+uuSGKIkSfNN3zST E2hurw/GIfxi2Hr1I8s5Q2CHiGsIso8YAbCRmWXPRH56BKuRQiX5fQDplLGL9G1Mnn oO0q5gMzUiY4nhzOOonXSXV4041RmIjvJ/QTuPVLsxIKn4LKoAYRHQyFn19+qZEBW/ i1q6FTQCOuV8cDDfOxYW3zU/bHsr2wK7JenvaKCKP9T6PXeWUeFYqzkl9vqvs2HP2H q9WdlYG5iEBueffjGcxIB+h9ur0zCW80Luv0RDs0WShYihj8boDVBdq4Wu/sFhXarH LaNSiRMKgJPsg==
Message-ID: <4acc48ec-bb89-826b-00fa-e1003d880b04@dcrocker.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 13:33:42 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.7.0
Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net
Content-Language: en-US
To: Ken O'Driscoll <ken=40wemonitoremail.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, Jakub Olexa <jakub=40mailkit.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: "bimi@ietf.org" <bimi@ietf.org>
References: <7639D8E5-B8CA-48E6-B6F3-63BA091C3AC5@contoso.com> <VI1PR01MB7053B6AF625A5FFB2222F795C70F9@VI1PR01MB7053.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com> <MN2PR11MB4351276056888F77815E220EF70F9@MN2PR11MB4351.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <CB922168-3B56-488E-90DD-2591B064F9FF@proofpoint.com> <0aba2ca2-d499-0f88-c490-cc83eb493760@mailkit.com> <1b843c81-c991-ebb2-0e34-e390c72558a1@cs.tcd.ie> <VI1PR01MB705346874D4A8DE24ADC4592C7109@VI1PR01MB7053.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com>
From: Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net>
Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking
In-Reply-To: <VI1PR01MB705346874D4A8DE24ADC4592C7109@VI1PR01MB7053.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/bimi/T4560SPpljYvrD99c6ykW6i1Lmc>
Subject: Re: [Bimi] MUA Evaluation of BIMI
X-BeenThere: bimi@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Brand Indicators for Message Identification <bimi.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/bimi>, <mailto:bimi-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/bimi/>
List-Post: <mailto:bimi@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bimi-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bimi>, <mailto:bimi-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2022 20:33:58 -0000

On 3/15/2022 1:27 PM, Ken O'Driscoll wrote:
> Independent MUAs are going to implement BIMI regardless. Telling them 
> that they can't in the specification isn't the solution. All that'll 
> ends up doing is turn BIMI into a Gravatar.
> 
> The spec. needs to articulate how they can do so, what the risks are, 
> and how to do it properly.


Exactly.

If an email feature for an end user cannot be implemented in their 
independent MUA, that's a pretty serious limitation, at Internet scale.

If there are basic requirements to the distributed implementation that 
limit what portion is 'allowed' in the MUA, that needs to be justified 
and documented clearly.

d/

ps. fears about encouraging/discouraging something, other than through 
the usual normative language, moves into the realm of mass psychology, 
which is considerably beyond the scope of most Internet technical 
specification groups' competence.

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net