Re: [bmwg] WG Last Call: draft-ietf-bmwg-ngfw-performance-05

"MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <> Tue, 12 January 2021 15:41 UTC

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From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <>
To: "" <>, "" <>
CC: "'Bala Balarajah'" <>, "'Carsten Rossenhoevel'" <>
Thread-Topic: [bmwg] WG Last Call: draft-ietf-bmwg-ngfw-performance-05
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Subject: Re: [bmwg] WG Last Call: draft-ietf-bmwg-ngfw-performance-05
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Hi Brian,

> The WGLC will close on 22 January, 2021, allow for holidays and other
competing topics.

I continue to plan to review sections that I have not reviewed in the past.

It is almost always better to keep the same version for the entire WGLC, so that's what I suggest :-) but I'm glad to hear that you have executed many changes to keep up with the comments!


> -----Original Message-----
> From: []
> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2021 10:37 AM
> Cc: 'Bala Balarajah' <>rg>; 'Carsten Rossenhoevel'
> <>
> Subject: RE: [bmwg] WG Last Call: draft-ietf-bmwg-ngfw-performance-05
> Al et al,
> Given that there have been no further comments we will update the draft
> and
> post it for, hopefully, final review.
> Brian
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <>
> Sent: December 24, 2020 11:03 AM
> To: 'Vratko Polak -X (vrpolak - PANTHEON TECH SRO at Cisco)'
> <>rg>;
> Cc: 'MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)' <>om>; 'Bala Balarajah'
> <>rg>; 'Carsten Rossenhoevel' <>
> Subject: RE: [bmwg] WG Last Call: draft-ietf-bmwg-ngfw-performance-05
> Vratko et al,
> See comments from the authors inline below - preceded by [authors].
> Brian
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bmwg <> On Behalf Of Vratko Polak -X (vrpolak -
> Sent: December 23, 2020 10:31 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [bmwg] WG Last Call: draft-ietf-bmwg-ngfw-performance-05
> > Please read and express your opinion on whether or not this
> > Internet-Draft should be forwarded to the Area Directors for
> > publication as an Informational RFC.
> The current draft is a large document, and I will have multiple comments.
> I expect some of them will be addressed by creating -06 version, so my
> opinion is -05 should not be forwarded for publication.
> > Send your comments to this list or to co-chairs at
> >
> The issue is, I do not have all the comments ready yet.
> In general, I need to spend some effort when turning my nebulous ideas
> into
> coherent sentences (mostly because only when writing the sentences I
> realize
> the topic is even more complicated than I thought at first).
> Also, specifically for BMWG, I want my comments to be more complete than
> usual.
> Not just "I do not like/understand this sentence", but give a new sentence
> and a short explanation why the new sentence is better.
> I have two reasons for aiming for high quality comments.
> First, I imagine many people are reading this list.
> That means, if I write a lazy superficial comment, I save my time, but
> readers will spend more time trying to reconstruct my meaning.
> (Similar to how in software development, code is written once but read
> many
> times.) Second reason is high latency on this mailing list.
> Usually, by the time the author reacts to the comments, the reviewer has
> switched their attention to other tasks, so it is better when the first
> comment does not need any subsequent clarifications from the reviewer.
> > allow for holidays and other competing topics
> I reserved some time before holidays, originally for improving MLRsearch,
> but NGFW is closer to publishing so it takes precedence.
> My plan is to start with giving a few low-quality comments, mainly to hint
> what areas I want to see improved.
> After holidays, I will write higher quality comments, one e-mail per area.
> This e-mail contains the low-quality comments (in decreasing order of
> brevity).
> 1. Test Bed Considerations. Useful, but maybe should be expanded into a
> separate draft.
> (Mainly expanding on "testbed reference pre-tests", and what to do if they
> fail but we still want some results.)
> [authors]  The section "Test Bed Considerations" just gives a
> recommendation
> (even though we haven't use Capital letter "RECOMMEND"). The section
> describes the importance of the pre-test, and it also gives an idea about
> pre-test. The Test labs or any user can decide themselves, if the pre-test
> is needed for their test.  However, based on our discussions with test
> labs,
> they usually perform such a pre-test. In our opinion, we should keep this
> section in the draft. It just creates an awareness of pre-test to the
> readers.
> 2. Sentence with "safety margin of 10%". Unclear.
> If you want to add or subtract, name both the quantity before and after
> the
> operation, so in later references it is clear which quantity is
> referenced.
> Also, why 10% and not something else (e.g. 5%)?
> [authors] You are right. Either we need to change the wording or remove
> the
> whole sentence. We suggest removing it
> 3. Is it "test bed" or "testbed"?
> I assume it means "SUT" plus "test equipment" together, but is should be
> clarified.
> [authors] Based on Oxford and Cambridge, it should be "test bed". We will
> solve the inconsistency  issue in the next version. A test bed should also
> include test equipment.  we will describe this in the next version.
> 4. Sustain phase follows after ramp-up phase immediately, without any
> pause,
> right? Then there is in-flight traffic at sustain phase start and end,
> making it hard to get precise counters.
> [authors] We don't think we can add a pause between ramp-up and sustain
> phase.  Since the frequency of the measurements are 2 second and the total
> sustain phase is 300s,I don't think the in-flight traffic will impact
> accuracy of the results.  However, we have two suggestions here:
> 1. ask test tool vendors if there is any way to add pause between two
> phases
> 2. we can describe in the draft that the measurement should occur between
> X
> sec (e.g. 2sec) after ramp-up begins and X sec before ramp-up ends.
> If it doesn't appear to be [possible to build in a pause we would go with
> option 2.
> 5. Validation criteria. The draft contains terms "target throughput" and
> "initial throughput", but also phrases like "the maximum and average
> achievable throughput within the validation criteria".
> I am not even sure if validation criteria apply to a trial (e.g. telemetry
> suggests test equipment behavior was not stable enough) or a whole search
> (e.g. maximum achievable throughput is below acceptance threshold).
> [authors] Section 6 .1 describes the average throughput.  Due to the
> behavior of stateful traffic (TCP) and also test tools behavior, getting a
> 100% linear (stable) throughput is not easy. There will always be
> continuous
> minor spikes. That's Why we chose to measure the average values.
> We will remove the wording "maximum ..." in the next version. Also, we
> will
> clarify that throughput means always avg. throughput. For an e.g. "target
> throughput" means "average target throughput"
> 6. It seems the same word "throughput" is used to mean different
> quantities
> depending on context.
> Close examination suggests it probably means forwarding rate [0] except
> the
> offered load [1] is not given explicitly (and maybe is not even constant).
> When I see "throughput" I think [2] (max offered load with no loss), which
> does not work as generally the draft allows some loss.
> Also, some terms (e.g. "http throughput") do not refer to packets, but
> other
> "transactions".
> [authors] The throughput measurement defined in [2] doesn't fit for L7
> stateful traffic.  For example TCP retransmissions are not always packet
> loss. Due to the test complexity and test tools behavior we have to allow
> some transaction failures. Therefore, we needed to define a different
> definition for the KPI throughput. Section 6.1 describes that the KPI
> measures the average Layer 2 throughput. But you are right; the term "http
> throughput" can be considered as L7 throughput or Goodput.   We will work
> on
> this in the next draft.
> 7. SUT state affecting performance. The draft does not mention any, so I
> think it assumes "stateless" SUT.
> An example of "stateful" SUT is NAT, where opening sessions has smaller
> performance than forwarding on already opened sessions.
> Or maybe it is assumed any such state enters a stationary state during
> ramp-up, so in sustain phase the performance is stable (e.g. NAT sessions
> may be timing out, but in a stable rate).
> [authors] SUT MUST be stateful, and it must do Stateful inspection. It
> doesn't mean that the SUT must do NAT if it is in stateful mode. NAT is
> just
> another feature which can or can't be enabled and this is based on the
> customer scenario.
> The traffic profile has limited (e.g. 10 for throughput test) transactions
> per TCP connection and the session will be closed once the transactions
> are
> completed. SUT will then remove the session entries from its session
> table.
> This means, there will be always new stateful sessions will be opened and
> established during the sustain period as well.   Apart from this, we can
> consider whether we want to add NAT as an option feature in the feature
> table (table 2).
> 8. Stateless or stateful traffic generation. Here stateless means
> predetermined packets are sent at predetermined times.
> Stateful means time or content of next-to-send packet depends on time or
> content of previously received packets.
> Draft section 7.1 looks like stateless traffic to me (think IMIX [3]),
> while
> others look like stateful (you cannot count http transaction rate from
> lossy
> stateless traffic).
> In general, stateful traffic is more resource intensive for test
> equipment,
> so it is harder to achieve high enough offered load.
> Also, stateful traffic generation is more sensitive to packet loss and
> latency of SUT.
> [authors] This is not IMIX [3].  IMIX [3] defines based on variable packet
> sizes. But here in the draft, we define traffic mix based  on different
> applications, and it's object sizes. For example an application mix can be
> HTTPS, HTTPS, DNS (UDP), VOIP (TCP and UDP), and, etc.). In this example
> we
> have a mix of stateful and stateless traffic and each application has
> different object sizes. One object can have multiple packets with
> different
> sizes. The packet sizes are dependent on multiple factors namely; TCP
> behavior, MTU size, total object size.
> Note: Stateful traffic generators MUST be used for all benchmarking tests
> and we used/are using stateful traffic generators for the NSO
> certification
> program.
> Vratko.
> [0]
> 3.6.1__;Iw!!BhdT!ycNEmzrmfiwdpp-
> 9vduF8oGkZmLCdHFdWLPW7AXW6BOzFW4leuw1EQ6cf_9LAsk$
> [1]
> 3.5.2__;Iw!!BhdT!ycNEmzrmfiwdpp-
> 9vduF8oGkZmLCdHFdWLPW7AXW6BOzFW4leuw1EQ6cHitzC1w$
> [2]
> 26.1__;Iw!!BhdT!ycNEmzrmfiwdpp-
> 9vduF8oGkZmLCdHFdWLPW7AXW6BOzFW4leuw1EQ6cm06wZVM$
> [3]
> cNEmzrmfiwdpp-9vduF8oGkZmLCdHFdWLPW7AXW6BOzFW4leuw1EQ6cDmT8_Wg$
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bmwg <> On Behalf Of MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)
> Sent: Friday, 2020-December-18 19:16
> To:
> Subject: [bmwg] WG Last Call: draft-ietf-bmwg-ngfw-performance-05
> Hi BMWG,
> We will start a WG Last Call for
> Benchmarking Methodology for Network Security Device Performance
> ngfw-performance-05__;!!BhdT!ycNEmzrmfiwdpp-
> 9vduF8oGkZmLCdHFdWLPW7AXW6BOzFW4leuw1EQ6cIm1m1L8$
> The WGLC will close on 22 January, 2021, allow for holidays and other
> competing topics (IOW, plenty of time!)
> Please read and express your opinion on whether or not this Internet-Draft
> should be forwarded to the Area Directors for publication as an
> Informational RFC.  Send your comments to this list or to co-chairs at
> for the co-chairs,
> Al
> _______________________________________________
> bmwg mailing list
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> _______________________________________________
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