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Thu, 16 Feb 2023 15:29:13 +0000 From: Zaheduzzaman Sarker To: John Scudder CC: The IESG , "can-chairs@ietf.org" , "can@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Zaheduzzaman Sarker's Block on charter-ietf-can-00-04: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHZQg+rQDHgXFPjM0yA1tF+3zald67RooSAgAAQKYA= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2023 15:29:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: <167655629191.43355.15509759045232338604@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.300.101.1.3) authentication-results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DB7PR07MB3995:EE_|AS4PR07MB8483:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 9185060f-91c7-4f84-34c9-08db10328f2a x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="Apple-Mail=_EFF960D8-0BA2-49C0-A319-0F24847ED1A7"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR07MB3995.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9185060f-91c7-4f84-34c9-08db10328f2a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Feb 2023 15:29:13.9061 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: GVEsKdZ9vnKgVlTRCRcXzyOu2XRxIpyuOZBHOFqR9ZOncLjQ7flROeWpoex0VtCbnbFB0aL59/ZUpym0b1GuIq7zmrQuozlSYKNe95ZYDkIhgOujxFK21foLp/ds6gM1 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AS4PR07MB8483 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Can] Zaheduzzaman Sarker's Block on charter-ietf-can-00-04: (with BLOCK and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: can@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39 Precedence: list List-Id: CAN- Computing-Aware Networking List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2023 15:29:22 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_EFF960D8-0BA2-49C0-A319-0F24847ED1A7 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_53FE1CF5-2CC9-42FA-A574-CE7C8C035D1C" --Apple-Mail=_53FE1CF5-2CC9-42FA-A574-CE7C8C035D1C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 16 Feb 2023, at 15:31, John Scudder wrote: >=20 > Hi Zahed, >=20 > Comments inline. >=20 >> On Feb 16, 2023, at 9:04 AM, Zaheduzzaman Sarker via Datatracker = > wrote: >>=20 >> Zaheduzzaman Sarker has entered the following ballot position for >> charter-ietf-can-00-04: Block >>=20 >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this >> introductory paragraph, however.) >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> = https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D31323334-501d5122-313273af-4544455= 55731-6752378b09e9a397&q=3D1&e=3Db1e283c7-6813-416b-889e-89735feb92c0&u=3D= https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2= Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-can%2F__%3B%21%21NEt6yMaO-gk%21AYfiywlMi7YSAdXB6JiyRJH= o74jnWUAG1KJvKFIf_j72saKsdoVlGSqJMxxjWQtnGMqLf2TZVL37%24 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> BLOCK: >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>=20 >> I have two easy to fix block comments which I believe needed to be = discussed >> and would clarify the charter better if addressed - >>=20 >> # it says - >>=20 >> "Exposure of network and compute conditions to applications >> is not in the scope of CAN. As part of its work, the CAN WG will seek >> advice and expertise from the ART and TSV areas." >>=20 >> I am confused, if the advice and expertise is for the exposure of the = network >> and compute condition and which is out of the scope, then what would = the >> advice for? This need to clarified. >=20 > I believe I was responsible for introducing that sentence so let me = say a few words about it. During the most recent BoF there was feedback = from several different people that broadly speaking, the load-balancing = problem has been worked in ART and TSV as well. The paragraph you=E2=80=99= re quoting is generally a =E2=80=9Cprior and related work=E2=80=9D = paragraph; it acknowledges this prior work and identifies what=E2=80=99s = different in the scope of CAN vs the other work. The specific sentence = you=E2=80=99re asking about is a way of saying =E2=80=9Cwe acknowledge = that there may be learnings from this prior work that could apply to = CAN, we also acknowledge that we should seek review to make sure CAN = isn=E2=80=99t inadvertently overlapping work that=E2=80=99s already been = taken care of.=E2=80=9D yes, I call that summery as well. But I was into that state of acking = previous work until the last two sentences, specially the last one where = we seek advice. I was assuming the intention was different that no point = on seeking advice on some thing that is out of scope, but the last = sentence make if feel like that.=20 I am was expecting more like - as the expertise lays in ART and TSV area = any work needed related to exposure to endpoint will be done there. >=20 > I=E2=80=99m not sure why you think the sentence in question is = specific to =E2=80=9Cexposure of the network and compute condition=E2=80=9D= , but I note that you left you two critical words there: =E2=80=9Cto = applications=E2=80=9D. Exposure of network and compute to the overlay = edge (or whatever the right term is, the steering function) is squarely = IN scope. It=E2=80=99s out of scope to expose these to applications, = this is in contrast to ALTO.=20 hmm, I this the problem is here - =E2=80=9CSpecific characteristics that may distinguish CAN from other work include the desire to integrate both network and compute conditions in the=20 optimization function=E2=80=9D there is no clear indication here that the optimizatiion funtions are on = the overlay edge, it can actually reside on number of places like in the = server, or on some proxy etc. I think we can clearly say the - "Specific characteristics that may distinguish CAN from other work include the desire to integrate both network and compute conditions in the=20 steering function in the edge over=20 >=20 > In any case, I think the sentence is not critical to the charter, and = we could address your concern in several different ways, including =E2=80=94= >=20 > - Delete the sentence. > - Expand it to capture more detail such as what I=E2=80=99ve written = above. > - If the concern arises from the non-sequitur between "Exposure of = network and compute conditions to applications is not in the scope of = CAN=E2=80=9D and "the CAN WG will seek advice and expertise from the ART = and TSV areas=E2=80=9D we could insert a paragraph break between them to = clarify that these are not closely-related thoughts. >=20 > Of these, I have a bias toward cutting things out, so I kind of like = the first option, but I would like to know what you think. I think we can be specific about the steering function resides in the = edge overlay (as I suggested above=E2=80=A6 yeah thats just an editorial = suggestion, use your flavour). and be clear that we are seeking advice = on the exposure of network and compute condition to edge overlay. >=20 >> # it says - >>=20 >> "The CAN WG will initially focus on single domain models." >>=20 >> Does this mean CAN will under this charter will eventually work on = multi >> domain models? will there be a rechartering needed to work on multi = domain >> models? This is going to impact the architecture I guess whether the >> solution is for single domain or multiple domains. >=20 > This text was introduced to respond to Martin=E2=80=99s BLOCK, where = he asked, "Is cross-domain routing in scope, or is this charter limited = to steering within a certain provider's network?=E2=80=9D The subsequent = discussion = (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/can/cVTeMtHy_rnqUbNSi7cuRGJbyn4/) = had the consensus that current interest is single-domain but that nobody = saw a specific need to rule out multi-domain in the charter.=20 >=20 > As a practical matter if you think it=E2=80=99s important to exclude = it in the charter, and require a recharter in order to work on this, = nobody wants to die on this hill, we can make the change. I think it is better to be specific. Lets focus on single domain. so if = you remove the word =E2=80=9Cinitially=E2=80=9D then we are fine here. >=20 >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> COMMENT: >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>=20 >> And one comment to clarify the service examples - >>=20 >> # can we change the service examples? it says - "for some services = (for >> example, VR/AR, intelligent transportation)". I don't really know = what the >> intelligent transportation service is, may be that is because my lack = of >> knowledge, hence very hard to see what requirements it puts that = requires >> compute awareness. AR/VR as a technology is mostly deployed in the = user >> devices now and the network assisted AR/VR application is kind of = still in >> research, hence may not be best examples for the CAN work. >=20 > I think the reason these examples were used was that they are thought = to require both minimization of latency and maximization of certain = kinds of compute resources, and of course because they were top-of-mind = for whoever crafted that example (it=E2=80=99s been in the draft charter = for a long time).=20 Sure, but as I wrote these example does not automatically translate to = the CAN=E2=80=99s focus use cases, unless there are explanation. >=20 > FWIW I take =E2=80=9Cintelligent transportation=E2=80=9D to mean = (without getting too picky about the details), autonomous vehicles. I would then write autonomous vehicles or connected vehicle=20 >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > =E2=80=94John=20 --Apple-Mail=_53FE1CF5-2CC9-42FA-A574-CE7C8C035D1C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 16 = Feb 2023, at 15:31, John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net> wrote:

Hi Zahed,

Comments inline.

On Feb 16, 2023, = at 9:04 AM, Zaheduzzaman Sarker via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> = wrote:

Zaheduzzaman Sarker has entered the following ballot = position for
charter-ietf-can-00-04: Block

When responding, = please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses = included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory = paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other = ballot positions, can be found here:
https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D31323334-501d5122-313273af-454= 445555731-6752378b09e9a397&q=3D1&e=3Db1e283c7-6813-416b-889e-89735= feb92c0&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2F%2Fdatatr= acker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-can%2F__%3B%21%21NEt6yMaO-gk%21AYfiywl= Mi7YSAdXB6JiyRJHo74jnWUAG1KJvKFIf_j72saKsdoVlGSqJMxxjWQtnGMqLf2TZVL37%24



--------------------------------------------------------= --------------
BLOCK:
----------------------------------------------= ------------------------

I have two easy to fix block comments = which I believe needed to be discussed
and would clarify the charter = better if addressed -

# it says -

 "Exposure of = network and compute conditions to applications
is not in the scope of = CAN. As part of its work, the CAN WG will seek
advice and expertise = from the ART and TSV areas."

I am confused, if the advice and = expertise is for the exposure of the network
and compute condition = and which is out of the scope, then what would the
advice for? This = need to clarified.

I = believe I was responsible for introducing that sentence so let me say a = few words about it. During the most recent BoF there was feedback from = several different people that broadly speaking, the load-balancing = problem has been worked in ART and TSV as well. The paragraph you=E2=80=99= re quoting is generally a =E2=80=9Cprior and related work=E2=80=9D = paragraph; it acknowledges this prior work and identifies what=E2=80=99s = different in the scope of CAN vs the other work. The specific sentence = you=E2=80=99re asking about is a way of saying =E2=80=9Cwe acknowledge = that there may be learnings from this prior work that could apply to = CAN, we also acknowledge that we should seek review to make sure CAN = isn=E2=80=99t inadvertently overlapping work that=E2=80=99s already been = taken care of.=E2=80=9D




characteristics that may distinguish =
CAN from other work include the
desire to integrate both network and compute conditions in =
the 




In any case, I think the sentence is not = critical to the charter, and we could address your concern in several = different ways, including =E2=80=94

- = Delete the sentence.
- = Expand it to capture more detail such as what I=E2=80=99ve written = above.
- If the concern arises = from the non-sequitur between "Exposure of network and compute = conditions to applications is not in the scope of CAN=E2=80=9D and "the = CAN WG will seek advice and expertise from the ART and TSV areas=E2=80=9D = we could insert a paragraph break between them to clarify that these are = not closely-related thoughts.

Of = these, I have a bias toward cutting things out, so I kind of like the = first option, but I would like to know what you think.

I think we can be specific = about the steering function resides in the edge overlay (as I suggested = above=E2=80=A6 yeah thats just an editorial suggestion, use your = flavour). and be clear that we are seeking advice on the exposure of = network and compute condition to edge overlay.


# it says = -

  "The CAN WG will initially focus on single domain = models."

 Does this mean CAN will under this charter will = eventually work on multi
 domain models? will there be a = rechartering needed to work on multi domain
 models? This is = going to impact the architecture I guess whether the
 solution = is for single domain or multiple domains.

This text was introduced to respond to = Martin=E2=80=99s BLOCK, where he asked, "Is cross-domain routing in = scope, or is this charter limited to steering within a certain = provider's network?=E2=80=9D The subsequent discussion (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/can/cVTeMtHy_rnqUbNSi7cuRGJbyn= 4/) had the consensus that = current interest is single-domain but that nobody saw a specific need to = rule out multi-domain in the charter. 

As a practical matter if you think it=E2=80=99= s important to exclude it in the charter, and require a recharter in = order to work on this, nobody wants to die on this hill, we can make the = change.

I think it is better to be = specific. Lets focus on single domain. so if you remove the word = =E2=80=9Cinitially=E2=80=9D then we are fine here.


-------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
COMMENT:
-------------------------------------------------------= ---------------

And one comment to clarify the service examples = -

# can we change the service examples? it says - "for some = services (for
example, VR/AR, intelligent transportation)". I don't = really know what the
intelligent transportation service is, may be = that is because my lack of
knowledge, hence very hard to see what = requirements it puts that requires
compute awareness.  AR/VR as = a technology is mostly deployed in the user
devices now and the = network assisted AR/VR application is kind of still in
research, = hence may not be best examples for the CAN work.

I think the reason these examples were used = was that they are thought to require both minimization of latency and = maximization of certain kinds of compute resources, and of course = because they were top-of-mind for whoever crafted that example (it=E2=80=99= s been in the draft charter for a long time). 

Sure, but as I wrote these = example does not automatically translate to the CAN=E2=80=99s focus use = cases, unless there are explanation.


FWIW I take = =E2=80=9Cintelligent transportation=E2=80=9D to mean (without getting = too picky about the details), autonomous vehicles.

I would then write = autonomous vehicles or connected vehicle 


Thanks,

=E2=80=94John 

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