Re: [Cbor] [hackathon] Formal Languages at the Hackathon

Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> Wed, 06 November 2019 21:11 UTC

Return-Path: <mellon@fugue.com>
X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78116120145 for <cbor@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 13:11:48 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.9
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DJXtWFAnBQNi for <cbor@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 13:11:46 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-wr1-x42d.google.com (mail-wr1-x42d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A824A12018D for <cbor@ietf.org>; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 13:11:45 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-wr1-x42d.google.com with SMTP id f2so162976wrs.11 for <cbor@ietf.org>; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 13:11:45 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=WkpmjJje8UABWhuWQtjq1njaYVfduXpGFAS27YzGEZ4=; b=VxghO5d45bPzGKcexkYUKH5gUJGg9d9KNu60yI96ZJzaJApW8uyXtZQ8rHS/U9FQ5w dczHzaai1JmAjTWhaUhAAU9yB+25CwxZFpAlycZlyUFDglQcmjUHaSeF1mEzYVHf4eFK PZe/pXqUgo/YhHzJIEFV2pzLLkI2Pt68mysKxpZPEg+ApVI177Jj5XYsVdJ4DGW2OCEh zCWJ8MxmCNhL3d7hCApo3M8O2s8NOzGoj6OdkkVK/WNwGUJ6kdGONxLSjT/wIRuN7cS/ /zsNN9zeUwaSQYRFcd5vg+fxssGXZpSnakO6piMuVeVVQ/fYEKHz21xVc6HMCruWq2T1 8nJg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=WkpmjJje8UABWhuWQtjq1njaYVfduXpGFAS27YzGEZ4=; b=AMahytbIj4QxgI26zHLwZjg4WNlGqm8qO9xfP5H/P1pIcDmnb+oiQOQE6CK9Oirvw2 uBmSW09BxE/PD10tuNxGOPFzC8QtmgAYmgdJrg8a+yqje5yFXkivsCCKMys050qlTxWP l8/p7ecwWwVApjmCpVnh7i4WDf27Np9G5WMtjcjMP00/cyb2xYEtxuQ5LoYZZ2a6Fij/ 4m/xQyv2duGpkJQyYYiMVTNTlJfWm+CFZXPoi2YgYdC5tUrWK8JE38OwvmrBNMho/zB3 rSA15VdLf61kpsXkoh6ciBprH+8ZkbSxYGou+g8I3ld1tw/r4HpBQxVl6WPG09NPakyQ X16Q==
X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVmEoQbEjT7yADHN7RWfdzaaSn3KAdLAgk5F5jY0Tjqlf1p5W75 moR+rzKXFVeXIpzG6Zc13KGomw==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyvEsKiWxwTfCAV1cwSJ076tzMpdsK9DAvysW1yazK7G5nLt80dE+JR8SSshuaP88JK4sKq0w==
X-Received: by 2002:a5d:6706:: with SMTP id o6mr4713451wru.54.1573074704100; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 13:11:44 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [10.10.172.74] (207.239.197.178.dynamic.wless.lssmb00p-cgnat.res.cust.swisscom.ch. [178.197.239.207]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g69sm3950088wme.31.2019.11.06.13.11.41 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Nov 2019 13:11:43 -0800 (PST)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3600\))
From: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
In-Reply-To: <867BC0C8-651A-4EDA-8C24-2E7C877BF624@tzi.org>
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 22:11:38 +0100
Cc: Antoni Przygienda <prz@juniper.net>, "cbor@ietf.org" <cbor@ietf.org>, Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com>, "t2trg@irtf.org" <t2trg@irtf.org>, Deborah Brungard <db3546@att.com>, "hackathon@ietf.org" <hackathon@ietf.org>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <76A4AEEE-7773-4031-988E-00466B23C15E@fugue.com>
References: <4BD0608C-A277-4130-B85C-D7A75FAEFD8F@smcquistin.uk> <C464EE6D-3DF8-4101-AA26-BD38A61F8E7B@tzi.org> <FF14A414-758A-462A-ADF4-3B6EF051FE32@juniper.net> <26630BB7-A8A6-4A35-BF22-22CEDFDBE3E3@tzi.org> <19B88297-3EB0-4FDD-86A0-E6118729312F@juniper.net> <867BC0C8-651A-4EDA-8C24-2E7C877BF624@tzi.org>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3600)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cbor/OeCtxoL00xECUqmp9BhldZcuE48>
Subject: Re: [Cbor] [hackathon] Formal Languages at the Hackathon
X-BeenThere: cbor@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation \(CBOR\)" <cbor.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/cbor>, <mailto:cbor-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/cbor/>
List-Post: <mailto:cbor@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:cbor-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor>, <mailto:cbor-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 21:11:48 -0000

This is getting kind of long for the hackathon mailing list (not that I object to formal languages!).

> On Nov 6, 2019, at 10:02 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; wrote:
> 
> On Nov 6, 2019, at 18:20, Antoni Przygienda <prz@juniper.net>; wrote:
>> 
>>>   When the complexity of the data being modeled dominates your thinking …
>> 
>> Tony’s dogma: “Complexity of any successful technology _always_ goes up with time” 😉 😉
> 
> Indeed, that’s why I talked about “dominates your thinking” (as opposed to “should dominate your thinking”).
> 
> An interesting effect of having a great FDT technique is that it becomes much easier to handle complexity.
> A follow-on effect is that, as it is so much easier to put in complexity, you do put in more of that.
> Which will hurt you sooner than you think (*)…
> 
> So I strongly believe that a prerequisite of using FDT successfully is that the formal model of your shiny new RFC should now fit on one slide.  (Which actually works out for RFC 7071 (+)!)
> 
> Grüße, Carsten
> 
> (*) I still remember when I first read the ASN.1 for GSM MAP.  All 950 pages [IIRC] of it…
> (+) https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8610#page-61
> 
> _______________________________________________
> hackathon mailing list
> hackathon@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hackathon