[Cbor] Re: I-D Action: draft-mcnally-deterministic-cbor-10.html

Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> Wed, 31 July 2024 06:13 UTC

Return-Path: <cabo@tzi.org>
X-Original-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: cbor@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08FAEC151091 for <cbor@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 30 Jul 2024 23:13:44 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.9
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_HELO_TEMPERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hLa9IlI56exW for <cbor@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 30 Jul 2024 23:13:38 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C89CFC14F73E for <cbor@ietf.org>; Tue, 30 Jul 2024 23:13:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtpclient.apple (p548dc419.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.196.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4WYhcB0QWPzDCdK; Wed, 31 Jul 2024 08:13:30 +0200 (CEST)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3776.700.51\))
From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
In-Reply-To: <cc786eb5-bd5c-404d-a2b2-716c64b4acc7@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 08:13:19 +0200
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <E21D4EEA-2C6E-4444-BB98-27D22A63F6C9@tzi.org>
References: <5504ABFA-33AA-4265-9006-834DD263B9D8@island-resort.com> <4118A3AE-E1F1-4311-B5D8-B2A09AD822F4@wolfmcnally.com> <cc786eb5-bd5c-404d-a2b2-716c64b4acc7@gmail.com>
To: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3776.700.51)
Message-ID-Hash: 7JPBMIRT5XOPLVNMHBX5N2GKNQMZZ2EY
X-Message-ID-Hash: 7JPBMIRT5XOPLVNMHBX5N2GKNQMZZ2EY
X-MailFrom: cabo@tzi.org
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-cbor.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
CC: Christian Amsüss <christian@amsuess.com>, Christopher Allen <ChristopherA@lifewithalacrity.com>, Joe Hildebrand <hildjj@cursive.net>, CBOR <cbor@ietf.org>, Shannon Appelcline <shannon.appelcline@gmail.com>, "lgl island-resort.com" <lgl@island-resort.com>, Wolf McNally <wolf@wolfmcnally.com>
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc4
Precedence: list
Subject: [Cbor] Re: I-D Action: draft-mcnally-deterministic-cbor-10.html
List-Id: "Concise Binary Object Representation (CBOR)" <cbor.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cbor/bPiBmJrfyX_P9ludr651j5xUoQU>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/cbor>
List-Help: <mailto:cbor-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:cbor-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:cbor@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:cbor-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:cbor-leave@ietf.org>

On 31. Jul 2024, at 07:48, Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> - No scientific proof of the superiority of numeric reduction from a determinism point of view.
> 
> - No down-to-earth example showing how numeric reduction would aid the targeted applications.


- No scientific proof of the superiority of numeric reduction from a determinism point of view THAT I UNDERSTAND.

- No down-to-earth example showing how numeric reduction would aid the targeted applications THAT I UNDERSTAND.

FTFY.

The argument has been made here, you just chose not to follow it.
(Yes, the argument is based on an application that you may not have; this doesn’t make it less convincing.)

(I’m not sure what “scientific proof” means; I’d substitute “technically sound argument”.)

I think the more important observation is that you don’t have to fight against these applications; they just aren’t yours.
And, that it’s not CDE vs. dCBOR — dCBOR contains CDE as a layer, so it is actually “no additional layer” vs. “add layer that helps mapping certain numeric application data types to numeric CBOR data types in a deterministic fashion, so CDE can do its thing on the latter”.

(After last week’s bizarre discussion about layers in a different place, maybe I should use this term less.  But it is really useful...)

Grüße, Carsten